What IS a Driver's License For?

Should ALL residents be allowed to apply and test for a Driver's License as a condition to drive?

Yes, it is in the best interest of public safety on the road.
8
73%
No, immigrants without papers should be punished by being denied a license.
3
27%
I have no opinion or don't care.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 11

Wise One

What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby Wise One » 2007 Oct 28 22:51

Silly me, I thought it was the state's effort to qualify, and provide proof that, the holder is able to drive without endangering others on the road. And to provide personal information, should a driving problem develop later, allowing the individual to be found.

But no, hysterical Righties have got driver's licenses all confused, insisting that they must be used to fight the demons of 9-11 and waves of brown immigrants "vissout zare papersz".

Eliot Spitzer, bless his soul, is the only politician so far with the courage to declare that a drivers license is mainly to assure public safety on the road, by testing and qualifying drivers from wherever they come and regardless of their immigration status.

In America, people who live here must drive ... that's reality. My family faces far more danger from untested and unqualified drivers than from terrorists.

:clap: Good on ya', Eliot. :clap:

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fangz1956
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Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby fangz1956 » 2007 Oct 29 02:25

I haven't voted in your poll as I find the question to be rather broad. I have qualms about anything that Homeland Security has its fingers in and "Federally secured" really gives me cause for concern as this has all the earmarks of another form of National ID and another way to be tracked by the powers that be. We have enough of that going on with SSN's and all the other numbers we are currently assigned. What's next........microchip implantation?

:hmm:
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fangz1956
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Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby fangz1956 » 2007 Oct 29 07:21

You raise some interesting points and views. However, in order to keep the illegals out we first have to close the borders. Then we have to allow the Border Patrol to do their job rather than throwing them in prison for doing that job.
:2cent:
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fangz1956
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Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby fangz1956 » 2007 Oct 29 08:30

I could write some stories on what I've witnessed in traffic court in the past couple of years. If you don't have a summons to be there, it well worth some time just to go and watch the cases that go before the judge. :craz:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

Wise One

Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby Wise One » 2007 Oct 29 12:31

beckonwood wrote: ... but for those who break the law - why should they be allowed all the rights of American citizens?
... those without papers should not drive period.

I understand where you're coming from, and your zeal for compliance with law is commendable.

That said, and all things carefully considered, I think it is foolish to put the burden of federal immigration enforcement on local law enforcement -- their hands are more than full just trying to keep us safe with the laws they are charged with enforcing.

Federal immigration law must be enforced by those charged with that federal responsibility. Period. Local law enforcement should be fully empowered to enforce traffic laws that keep us safe as we move on the roads every day, especially verifying that each and every driver is tested and qualified to be knowledgeable and skillful in driving on US roads. I have seen SO many news reports about immigrants -- unlicensed, unschooled and untested out of fear of legal repercussions -- plowing into others with resultant death and injury.

It is destructively self-righteous and short-sighted to refuse to qualify and test drivers, knowing that even if we don't we will encounter them sooner or later on the road. If America has an immigration problem it needs to solve it by enforcing immigration laws -- meanwhile, get out of the way of keeping our roads safe!

Most people, yes, even immigrants, are responsible and want to do the best they can. Most will happily lift a burden of fear from their shoulders by learning US driving regulations, taking a test, and becoming licensed. It's a win-win situation for us to enable them to do so. Immigration laws and regulations are another matter, an important one, requiring action but on their own terms and not in opposition to day-to-day public safety on the roads.

:wink: My kids survived 9-11 from a distance of 200 feet - really. They're WAY closer to unlicensed drivers every single day and face greater total danger from them. :wink:

Wise One

Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby Wise One » 2007 Oct 29 22:50

"Illegal Immigrant" ... the only instance where we label a person, not his act, illegal. Here's a clear thinker.
LAWRENCE DOWNES of the Editorial Observer on 28 Oct 2007 wrote:What Part of ‘Illegal’ Don’t You Understand?

I am a human pileup of illegality. I am an illegal driver and an illegal parker and even an illegal walker, having at various times stretched or broken various laws and regulations that govern those parts of life. The offenses were trivial, and I feel sure I could endure the punishments — penalties and fines — and get on with my life. Nobody would deny me the chance to rehabilitate myself. Look at Martha Stewart, illegal stock trader, and George Steinbrenner, illegal campaign donor, to name two illegals whose crimes exceeded mine.

Good thing I am not an illegal immigrant. There is no way out of that trap. It’s the crime you can’t make amends for. Nothing short of deportation will free you from it, such is the mood of the country today. And that is a problem.

America has a big problem with illegal immigration, but a big part of it stems from the word “illegal.” It pollutes the debate. It blocks solutions. Used dispassionately and technically, there is nothing wrong with it. Used as an irreducible modifier for a large and largely decent group of people, it is badly damaging. And as a code word for racial and ethnic hatred, it is detestable.

“Illegal” is accurate insofar as it describes a person’s immigration status. About 60 percent of the people it applies to entered the country unlawfully. The rest are those who entered legally but did not leave when they were supposed to. The statutory penalties associated with their misdeeds are not insignificant, but neither are they criminal. You get caught, you get sent home.

Since the word modifies not the crime but the whole person, it goes too far. It spreads, like a stain that cannot wash out. It leaves its target diminished as a human, a lifetime member of a presumptive criminal class. People are often surprised to learn that illegal immigrants have rights. Really? Constitutional rights? But aren’t they illegal? Of course they have rights: they have the presumption of innocence and the civil liberties that the Constitution wisely bestows on all people, not just citizens.

Many people object to the alternate word “undocumented” as a politically correct euphemism, and they have a point. Someone who sneaked over the border and faked a Social Security number has little right to say: “Oops, I’m undocumented. I’m sure I have my papers here somewhere.”

But at least “undocumented” — and an even better word, “unauthorized” — contain the possibility of reparation and atonement, and allow for a sensible reaction proportional to the offense. The paralysis in Congress and the country over fixing our immigration laws stems from our inability to get our heads around the wrenching change involved in making an illegal person legal. Think of doing that with a crime, like cocaine dealing or arson. Unthinkable!

So people who want to enact sensible immigration policies to help everybody — to make the roads safer, as Gov. Eliot Spitzer would with his driver’s license plan, or to allow immigrants’ children to go to college or serve in the military — face the inevitable incredulity and outrage. How dare you! They’re illegal.

Meanwhile, out on the edges of the debate — edges that are coming closer to the mainstream every day — bigots pour all their loathing of Spanish-speaking people into the word. Rant about “illegals” — call them congenital criminals, lepers, thieves, unclean — and people will nod and applaud. They will send money to your Web site and heed your calls to deluge lawmakers with phone calls and faxes. Your TV ratings will go way up.

This is not only ugly, it is counterproductive, paralyzing any effort toward immigration reform. Comprehensive legislation in Congress and sensible policies at the state and local level have all been stymied and will be forever, as long as anything positive can be branded as “amnesty for illegals.”

We are stuck with a bogus, deceptive strategy — a 700-mile fence on a 2,000-mile border to stop a fraction of border crossers who are only 60 percent of the problem anyway, and scattershot raids to capture a few thousand members of a group of 12 million.

None of those enforcement policies have a trace of honesty or realism. At least they don’t reward illegals, and that, for now, is all this country wants.

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Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby fangz1956 » 2007 Oct 30 06:20

Thanks for a fine article. It speaks volumes and makes complete and rational sense.

It also brings to mind the old axiom of "Desperate times call for desperate measures." In my way of thinking and from my view of the world, most of these folks are here seeking a better way of life for their families. They live in crowded conditions, work long hours, and send the money home to their families. Desperation drives people to dare to do illegal things in order for themselves and their families to survive. This does not make them bad people......quite the opposite. My own grandfather got into this country illegally......from Poland just prior to WWI. Is he a criminal for wanting to save his family from the ravages and atrocities of a war? I think not!
I think we need to take a big step back and really look at the bigger picture.....the real reasons for the dilemma facing America and the real reasons driving immigrants to dare come here under cover of darkness. Do we think we are so superior as Americans that we can just lump other human beings under a discriminatory label and basically shout "Off with their heads!" Who died and made us God????? Have we become so wrapped in fear that we would deny ANY person the right to a better life for themselves and their loved ones? It sure looks like that is exactly what we are doing. And if we are that fearful as a nation and as a people, then our problems are far greater than issues of immigration.

:cool:
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Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby Amy Probenski » 2007 Oct 30 09:47

WO, I think you might be confusing Spitzer's earlier, simpler and better plan for the somewhat unsatisfactory compromise that seems to be emerging. I haven't made up my mind whether the compromise is better or worse than our present cruel and unsafe system that refuses to license all competent drivers.
NYT Editorial on October 30, 2007 wrote:Governor Spitzer Retreats

Gov. Eliot Spitzer has confronted the most intense public criticism of his political career — and caved. Not so long ago, Mr. Spitzer was doing the right and brave thing, planning to offer driver’s licenses to qualified but undocumented immigrants. The plan was inherently fair and would have made the state and its roads safer. Unfortunately, it also made Mr. Spitzer the target of some very nasty rhetoric from his political opponents, while his allies offered mostly weak-kneed support.

So, on Saturday, Mr. Spitzer left the field. Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff and he hastily announced a new plan, a revised three-tiered licensing system for New York’s drivers. Not all the details are available, but it looks like bad government policy and a bureaucratic nightmare in the making. Unwieldy and probably unworkable, it manages to offend a whole segment of pro-immigration New Yorkers, some of the few political friends Mr. Spitzer has left.

As outlined, the new agreement between New York and Washington would create three licenses. One would comply with the still-undecided federal standards for the Real ID Act, and another would be for those who want to go to Canada without using a passport. The third license would not be valid as identification to board airplanes or enter federal buildings.

It is license No. 3 — the cheapest and easiest to get — that would be offered to all New York residents, including the undocumented. The Spitzer people say that they would not share information about the immigration status of any of these third-tier drivers. But as immigrant advocates have already pointed out, who else would really want this license except those who cannot qualify for anything else? As other states have learned, a separate but unequal license for immigrants does not work. Undocumented workers would not come out of the shadows to apply for a driving permit that they believe would make them a target for any official on a crusade against illegal immigrants.

The new Spitzer licensing proposal also raises another serious concern. The governor could be turning his constituents into the nation’s guinea pigs for the controversial Real ID, a kind of national identification card. Passed in 2005, the Real ID law offers little money to states that are being asked to come up with a super-secure identification card by 2013. Already, a number of states have declared they will not comply with the act — citing expense or privacy concerns. Some have said that a “gold standard” security card would brand those who don’t have it as suspicious. Others question what happens when somebody creates a fraudulent Real ID.

Governor Spitzer’s pivot from his difficult stand on driver’s licenses is a disappointment. The way he swiftly made, and then unmade, this decision is unsettling. It revives questions about whether this rookie governor seeks enough wise counsel and then listens to it. It leaves us wondering whether Mr. Spitzer has the willpower to remain focused on his better plans and better instincts in the future.

Wise One

Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby Wise One » 2007 Oct 30 10:57

Now that's a good one, Beck! Thanks for making me scratch my head in an aha! moment.

I'm convinced. Let's deport all those illegal aliens, plus their children and their children's children etc. they so sneakily spawned so they'd have citizenship. Send 'em back to Europe, etc., where they came from. Where do they get off thinking they have rights!?!

But wait -- my German stinks.

Wise One

Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby Wise One » 2007 Oct 30 18:43

beckonwood wrote:Presently there are between 20 and 38 million illegal immigrants in our country. Approximately $41,066,577,642.00 money is wired to Mexico since Jan 2006, $329, 245,486, 395.00 money wired to Latin America since 01. The cost of Social Services for illegal immigrants since 1996 is $397,478,411, 395.00. There are 4,165,857.00 children of illegals in public schools and the cost of illegals in K-12 since 1996 is $14,755,687,182.00. The number of illegal immigrants incarcerated is 349, 536.00 and the cost of incarcerations since 2001 is $1,470,601,272.
I do admire your passion, Beck, and don't want to discourage you from continuing to express it. But, really, the stuff you rely on is so sketchy. Your statistics are presented by this site only to alarm, look implausible, and lack rational analysis or context.
$397,478,411,395.00 is SCARY! Even though it seems exaggerated, let's accept it for the moment. Spread over the 11 years and 21,708,672 immigrants the same site refers to, that's $1,664. Each immigrant would have to send home $7,583 annually to support the site's implausibly high numbers. Accepting this also means that any average wage over $9,247 per year would be a net positive for the US, a wage such immigrants surely earn. And, remember, our economy benefits from both their net earnings and the economic value of their work.
beckonwood wrote:I want us to continue to speak English and be Americans.
Nobody's stopping you.
beckonwood wrote:I believe that illegal immigrants do not have rights such as we have.
I am so happy that the law relies on the United States Constitution rather than on you.

resigned

Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby resigned » 2007 Oct 30 19:27

Scarry huh, well it's almost halloween.

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fangz1956
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Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby fangz1956 » 2007 Oct 30 21:28

Hmmmm.......let's see. We might be able to achieve maintaining an English speaking nation if we do the following:

1. Pull all military forces out of every single base around the world. We will bring them home and use every single one of them to man the borders......ALL borders, not merely the one between Texas and Mexico. Hey, these guys could string miles of barbed wire and razor wire around the entire country.

2. Then we round up every single person in the country that does not speak English. This would not be limited to the Hispanics but would also include the Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean, Thai, Lebanese, French, German, Polish, Russian, Finnish, Swedish, Norwegian, Nigerian, Kenyan, Haitian, Swahili, Armenian, italian (am I leaving anybody out here?). We will deport them all since they don't speak English.

3. Now if we want to be the true white bread and mayo Americans, we also will need to deport all people of color.

4. And since we seem to want to run on a "colonial" slant, we shall also have to deport all people who do not practice Christianity. Say good-bye to the Catholics, Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, Wiccans. Hmmmm.......the Indians might just have to go too as they are not widely known to practice the white man's religion.

5. We will have to change the wording on the Statue of Liberty as we will only allow white, English speaking into the country. We will also have to re-word the Declaration of Independence to read that only white, English speaking people are created equal and are the only ones entitled to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

OMG!!........that leaves us with an "Aryan Nation". Hitler would be proud. :craz:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

Wise One

Postby Wise One » 2007 Oct 30 22:14

. . Image
:wink: Heil dreiundvierzig ! :wink:

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fangz1956
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Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby fangz1956 » 2007 Oct 31 06:20

Why have laws if we don't uphold them? I'll counter that with a question to you: Why have a Border Patrol that is not allowed to do their job? Why are Border Patrol guards thrown in prison for shooting at illegal drug runners crossing the border? Said drug runner was granted amnesty and the Border Patrol guards were imprisoned for doing their job. What a concept!!!!! "Splain it to me Lucy.

I am so sorry that some folks lack a sense of humor. What you read was not a diatribe......it is the very real thing that a lot of people in this great nation of ours would love to see happen.

Be careful what you wish for.......you might just get it.
:wink:

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.a ... E_ID=52545
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Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby Juggler » 2007 Oct 31 10:03

I was puzzled over your question
fangz1956 wrote:Why are Border Patrol guards thrown in prison for shooting at illegal drug runners crossing the border?
and so I read the article you referenced.

It seems to indicate that the guards shot an unarmed person in the back, an act that is contrary to both their training and the law. It is not permissible to shoot a fleeing crime suspect only because he is fleeing -- the law is very clear on that. Therefore, it would appear that convicting the guards of a crime was appropriate. Am I missing something here?

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Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby fangz1956 » 2007 Oct 31 11:14

Yes.....there is more to the story. http://www.townhall.com/columnists/colu ... 007&page=2

and this http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/17/Dobbs. ... newssearch

Now, if one takes the time to follow some links and read with an open mind, one will see that the serious issues facing this country run far deeper than illegal immigration. This ties right in with the article about The Highwaymen in the forum titled Selling America. For those who are not faint of heart, I would recommend some reading about the Council on Foreign Relations and the North America Union. And if one is feeling extremely brave, do a little research on The New Order of the Barbarians. Fair warning.................open-mindedness is a requirement for the suggested research and reading.
We are screwed and we slept while it was happening. :2cent:
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Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby Juggler » 2007 Oct 31 12:06

Sorry, but nothing that comes from Phyllis Schlafly has a shred of credibility. She is simply nuts.

Lou Dobbs is a step up on the credibility scale, but on this issue he seems to me to be fringe messianic and sometimes equally nutty. (He was the source of that truly crazy leprosy scare, blaming immigrants for an non-existent epidemic.)

I think the country is as hysterical over immigration as over terrorism. The costs and dangers are far lower than demagogues, who stay in office only by whipping up fear, would have us believe.

Anonymoose

Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby Anonymoose » 2007 Nov 02 07:00

If we make the illegals go home, who in the hell is going to WORK in this country? The work ethic of the "legal" population has deteriorated to the point you could never get them to work consistently for less than $15.00/hour.

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fangz1956
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Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby fangz1956 » 2007 Nov 02 08:57

A couple of good points were raised here. I do agree that the government loves to play the fear card at every whip-stitch. Hmmmmm......what a fine to control the people and keep them believing that Uncle Sam is serving our best interests. Yeah right.....and if you fall for that fear card that is continually trumped, I have some nice beachfront propert in Arizona to sell you.

The second point is the deportation of illegals. I was thinking about this and does anybody know what the cost to the American people would be to undertake a venture of that magnitude? (Haven't had time to research this piece yet so anybody else that has an idea, please jump in). And yes, we the generation that set out to change the world have raised a generation that possesses a deep sense of entitlement and will tell ya in a heartbeat "That's not my job'. Unfortunately, one of the biggest issues is the suppression of the wage scale caused by the influx of illegals. This could likely be the straw that breaks the back of the middle class. The solution to this societal dilemma needs to be equitable for ALL rather than a selct few.

And Beck.....there's an old saying that goes "The truth will set you free but first it will piss you off'.

:wink:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

RubyRed

Re: What IS a Driver's License For?

Postby RubyRed » 2007 Nov 05 20:44

I went through H**l when I moved back to Viriginia 4 years ago and tried to get a Virginia drivers license. I had been gone not quite 5 years and prior to moving had held a Virginia drivers license for at least 15 years. All of our personal belongings were in storage because we were staying with family until we closed on our house. I had to make 3 trips to the DMV to get my license. I could not find my birth certificate or my marriage license. I have a nursing license issued to me by the state of Virginia, but that was not on their list of acceptable forms of identification. What really angered me was that one of the ladies that works at the DMV went to high school with my sister. I finally had to get the high school to send verification to the DMV that I went to high school here and I was not, in fact, a terrorist.