So Called Stimulus Bill

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby resigned » 2009 Feb 07 20:16

Come on Uji, when I post something about what I saw on TV, do I need to say "Oh and this is written in stone" I just mentioned I heard it on TV. Doesn't mean it was a bona fide fact. Just this, I heard it on TV. Or I heard it on the grapevine. Don't get your knickers in a knot. But having read this bill I can say this and I will write it in concrete, this bill is huge and has more pork, hog, beef, etc in it that stimulus. Forget about the percentage. It's the largest bill to come out of Washington.

Now hear this Uji, I got a feel for this kind of thing and besides I saw it in my crystal ball and talked to God. So either way I got the facts mam, just the facts. Now you can untie your knickers and settle down. :pompom:

It's a tough job but someone has to do it.

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby resigned » 2009 Feb 10 08:11

In listening and reading more about this Porkus Bill, I found that there is a section regarding health. Betsy McCaughey has written a very interesting article on thie bill. She indicates that neither side are paying any attention to the provisions in the bill which "will affect every individual in America" The provisions in the bill reflect a book written by Tom Daschel.

" It explains that Daschle says health-care reform “will not be pain free.” Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&refer=columnist_mccaughey&sid=aLzfDxfbwhzs#

I am speechless and find this totally unacceptable.

Veeferguy

Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby Veeferguy » 2009 Feb 10 09:28

Pork ridden Monster?????

Jeeeeeesuz, have you even looked at this bill online or are you (like most American Idol watching Americans) just taking shots from the cheap seats. Maybe we should amend the constitution to remove term limits, bring George Jr back so he can completely run this country and what little world dignity we have left into the ground. Heck, I think he could accomplish that in less than a year.
:hair: :curse: :guillot: :banghead: :angry4:

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby resigned » 2009 Feb 10 09:33

I have been reading the bill, which is labor intensive and boooooring. Yet at the same time makes my blood boil. I have been trying to point out some issues that seem really bad. But instead should just point out that the whole bill is shameful and way too large. I have written Senators Webb and Warner, although I don't think that will do much good. Its going through with all the gravy on top.

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby Wise One » 2009 Feb 10 11:22

beckonwood wrote:Betsy McCaughey has written a very interesting article on this bill ... Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. I am speechless and find this totally unacceptable."

This language is nowhere in the bill, so it's a red herring. Read what the bill says, not what untrustworthy dingbats say it says.

I googled this thing to find it has been picked up by nearly every rightie outlet you can think of. Of course it is crap, which one can verify by looking at the actual legislation rather than at distorted descriptions by kooks.

The provision in the legislation is perfectly reasonable (see exact text below.) It is in the information technology section of the bill, meant only to modernize information systems and to be more complete for physicians who, using on their own criteria, recommend health treatment alternatives. There is nothing in the bill that would mandate or restrict anything regarding treatment.

The referenced story on experimental drugs for macular degeneration came from the UK, not the US, from a brief period when the effectiveness of certain drugs was still uncertain and the UK's National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence had not yet completed its evaluation and approval process. It has absolutely nothing whatever to do with the US Stimulus Bill. I have searched unsuccessfully for source material to corroborate an inflammatory allegation that "elderly patients with macular degeneration had to wait until they went blind in one eye before they could get a costly new drug to save the other eye", and strongly suspect that it is a distortion at best, or a lie at worst. I did find evidence that, early on, payment was not authorized everywhere -- but you have ever dealt with a US insurance company?

As with our FDA, experimental drugs are often not authorized for widespread application until they are proven, even while they are sometimes authorized for application for in extremis patients who have little to lose with drug failure because they are in rapid decline. A person with macular degeneration in both eyes, already blind in one eye, is in extremis with respect to this condition.

This anecdote, plucked from another country and completely unrelated to the proposed legislation, was described dishonestly for the sole purpose of alarming people who cannot recognize a lie when they see one.

H.R. 1 EH, pdf version, p.402 wrote:Subtitle A—Promotion of Health Information Technology
SEC. 3001. OFFICE OF THE NATIONAL COORDINATOR FOR HEALTH INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY.
...
(b) PURPOSE.—The National Coordinator shall perform the duties under subsection (c) in a manner consistent with the development of a nationwide health information technology infrastructure that allows for the electronic use and exchange of information and that—
(1) ensures that each patient’s health information is secure and protected, in accordance with applicable law;
(2) improves health care quality, reduces medical errors, reduces health disparities, and advances the delivery of patient-centered medical care;
(3) reduces health care costs resulting from inefficiency, medical errors, inappropriate care, duplicative care, and incomplete information;
(4) provides appropriate information to help guide medical decisions at the time and place of care;
(5) ensures the inclusion of meaningful public input in such development of such infrastructure;
(6) improves the coordination of care and information among hospitals, laboratories, physician offices, and other entities through an effective infra-structure for the secure and authorized exchange of health care information;
(7) improves public health activities and facilitates the early identification and rapid response to public health threats and emergencies, including bioterror events and infectious disease outbreaks;
(8) facilitates health and clinical research and health care quality;
(9) promotes prevention of chronic diseases;
(10) promotes a more effective marketplace, greater competition, greater systems analysis, increased consumer choice, and improved outcomes in health care services; and
(11) improves efforts to reduce health disparities.

:hair: Don't be lazy. Always go to the source.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby resigned » 2009 Feb 11 07:26

"Don't be lazy always go to the source". Apparently you haven't read some of my previous postings where I listed various items I had read about in the stimulus bill. But I take umbrage at your indicating that I am lazy. I may be allot of things but lazy is not one of them.

Having been raised on a farm in the Ozark Mtns. I milked cows before and after school. We didn't get running water or electricity in our house until I was ten. I always thought I would end up marrying a farmer and living on a farm. Believe me we worked hard on that farm.

I lost my first husband to Viet Nam and managed to take care of two small children and work a job until I met my present husband. After several years of marriage and two more children, I attended college while taking care of a family of six. I made sure there were good nutritious meals on the table every day, I did all the laundry for the family, took all the kids to their music lessons, Little League games etc. All of this while attending college. I received my BA because I found out that if I took over 16 credits a semester it didn’t cot any extra so I carried 19 or 20 credits a semester and managed to make the deans list and was 16th in my graduating class. I doubled up on classes and received my Masters in Social Work the following year. From there I went right to work and through my job was able to obtain a second Masters in Public Administration. All of this while taking care of a family with four children and a husband. I might add that in a short time I was able to get the job of Director of Social Services in a large facility. I was head of a large department and running it very well. I received excellent job evaluations.

I have been reading the HRI bill and it takes me a great deal of time to assimilate it and understand some of it. You probably take for granted the ease you have with writing as you write well. Although I don’t always agree with you. If the article is considered right wing so be it. I thought it interesting. I might add that I find it disturbing that all Americans will be put in this centralized computerized system by 2014 I believe. Systems can be hacked into and I don't want my medical records for all to see. I have nothing to hide but that is how I feel. Systems can be hacked into its done all the time. The data base for my medical insurance was hacked into and they are now paying for my and my husband to have two years of credit coverage.

I have been struggling to read this bill and it is difficult. I struggle to write many of my responses for the forum and over the years I have belonged have found it to help me and push my brain to do more. Since I suffered from a traumatic brain injury the result of a head injury about ten years ago my abilities have changed significantly. I could no longer hold my job and had to retire, I spent months going though rehab. Through testing it was determined I had permanent brain injury and on some of my cognitive deficits measured as borderline. I might add that being emotional at times is part of a TBI and you have pointed that out to me. If you are interested please read the book “Over My Head” by Claudia Osborn who was a doctor who suffered a TBI.

So to labeled as lazy is appalling to me for I have worked so hard to get to where I am today. Besides the TBI, I have seizures which are controlled, a slight paralysis on one side of my body, I have grown dependent on my husband, I have periods where my mind goes completely blank and that is frightening when out in a crowd or driving a car. It only lasts for a very short while, I can’t deal with numbers or make change. I see one word in my head but a different word will come out of my mouth. During the time I was going though rehab I could not remember people’s faces. I have found out that we not only think in terms of words we also think in terms of images and feelings. My world for a long time was black and gray then as I started improving color started coming back. I could go on and on but don’t want to bore you.

So I may be many things but never lazy.

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby Wise One » 2009 Feb 11 08:33

Beckonwood, please don't over-personalize my ending tag line, which was intended mainly to be light and humorous. It also had a somewhat serious purpose of general advice to everybody that much of what we see out there on "the internets" is crap, in the sense that there are many dishonest people who try to mislead us, particularly on right-wing sites.

We are well-served by being suspicious of third-party allegations. It's better to go to the heart of truth, in this case the original source material, when something looks fishy.

Lazy you are clearly not, personally, for all the reasons you gave, and from the strong and positive impression that you make here on the Rockbridge Forum. :clap:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby resigned » 2009 Feb 11 10:30

Well I know I do get too sensitive and I do appreciate your acknowledgement. I truly admire people who have such a good grasp of the English language. I remember watching the movie A Man of All Seasons with Paul Scolfield I believe. I was mesmerized with that movie and the language skills. So I really do appreciate your writing skills and wish I had the same. I still write well when I really sit down and concentrate and use spell check and the Theasaurus.

I am trying to read the bill and it is so difficult to understand. After awhile It all becomes a jumble. From almost all I read though and understand I don't like it. I would like to see our governemnt give money to those folks who are having difficulty with their mortgages to help them out. I am for helping people out who are truly in need. Right now I am trying to read the sections on small business to see if my daughter and son in law would be eligible for any help with their business.

I am a conservative and will remain one until I die. But I am always willing to look at the other side. I believe Frangz posts some real thought provoking messages and because of them have been reading more on the Salon than ever. I always enjoy Coondog for his humerous approach and am trying to get a fix on Uji. Not sure about him at the present. I really enjoy 10thFo, because apparently we are of the same background. As for Truckie, he is not consistent. He may hold similar beliefs to mine, but I feel he needs to be consistent. And maybe thats because he may be busy, who knows.

But I do enjoy the forum and am really trying hard to post the most relevant material and truthful although It may not always agree with others here. But then I have to hold fast to my beliefs and principles. Thats me. Oh well enough of me.

I will keep on trying to find the truth in all things.

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby Uji » 2009 Feb 12 10:41

beckonwood wrote:But having read this bill I can say this and I will write it in concrete, this bill is huge and has more pork, hog, beef, etc in it that stimulus.

And just exactly how do you know this, Beck? There certainly is no consensus among economists about it.

So what you are saying is that despite the evidence -- which suggests that nobody knows , that we are all guessing--, you have certainty.

Congratulation. You've achieved "faith."

Now you can start a religion.

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby resigned » 2009 Feb 12 11:47

Well Uji I have been reading the bill, watching several news channels on TV, reading a number of websites including the New York Times and Salon (which seems to be the accepted reading sources) and I will say again that I believe this bill is one of the largest in our history. Remember I am entitled to my beliefs. Does everything I write have to be written as if I were writing a term paper? Jeeze Louise, I realize there is no consensus among many; these are the way I interpret the sources I read, see and hear.

NOW HEAR THIS ,MY BELIEF IS THAT THIS BILL IS, WITHOUT A DOUBT ON MY PART, FILLED WITH PORK, BEEF, CHICKEN, COW MANURE ET. AND I SAY THIS WITH ALL THE CERTAINTY I CAN MUSTER UP.

Remember I have a crystal ball and talk to God. At this point I might even talk to the Devil himself.

Just wondering are you just visiting this planet?

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby resigned » 2009 Feb 12 13:33

Image

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby resigned » 2009 Feb 13 07:39


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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby Wise One » 2009 Feb 13 14:10

Nice summary. I posted another summary at the end of this message, this time focused on benefits that individuals like you and me will realize, small compared to the bulk of the Bill.

It is rare that I get ahead of Keith Olbermann, a man I admire greatly, but I actually scooped him by two days my prior posting here on this Forum, responding to copied crap on this subject.

Here's the piece he did last night in which he made many of the same points:

[youtube]-3dj272GmF0[/youtube]

THE AMERICAN RECOVERY AND REINVESTMENT ACT OF 2009, FEBRUARY 12, 2009
FULL SUMMARY OF PROVISIONS FROM SENATE FINANCE, HOUSE WAYS & MEANS COMMITTEES
1 TAX RELIEF FOR INDIVIDUALS AND FAMILIES

Tax Credit. The bill would cut taxes for more than 95% of working families in the United States. For 2009 and 2010, the bill would provide a refundable tax credit of up to $400 for working individuals and $800 for working families. This tax credit would be calculated at a rate of 6.2% of earned income, and would phase out for taxpayers with adjusted gross income in excess of $75,000 ($150,000 for married couples filing jointly). Taxpayers can receive this benefit through a reduction in the amount of income tax that is withheld from their paychecks, or through claiming the credit on their tax returns. This proposal is estimated to cost $116.199 billion over 10 years.
Economic Recovery Payment to Recipients of Social Security, SSI, Railroad Retirement and Veterans Disability Compensation Benefits. The bill would provide a one-time payment of $250 to retirees, disabled individuals and SSI recipients receiving benefits from the Social Security Administration, Railroad Retirement beneficiaries, and disabled veterans receiving benefits from the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. The one-time payment is a reduction to any allowable Making Work Pay credit. This proposal is estimated to cost $14.225 billion over 10 years.
Refundable Credit for Certain Federal and State Pensioners. The bill would provide a onetime refundable tax credit of $250 in 2009 to certain government retirees who are not eligible for Social Security benefits. This one-time credit is a reduction to any allowable Making Work Pay credit. This proposal is estimated to cost $218 million over 10 years.
Increase in Earned Income Tax Credit. The bill would temporarily increase the earned income tax credit for working families with three or more children. Under current law, working families with two or more children currently qualify for an earned income tax credit equal to phase-out for working families with adjusted gross income in excess of $16,420 ($19,540 for married couples filing jointly). The bill would increase the earned income tax credit to forty-five three or more children and would increase the beginning point of the phase-out range for all married couples filing a joint return (regardless of the number of children) by $1,880. This proposal is estimated to cost $4.663 billion over 10 years.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby resigned » 2009 Feb 16 06:52

Here is a very good chart of what the bill contains. I have read other report and have to agree with you on the article from Bloomberg I posted while back. Well I do say I am learning. I can say this that the right wing and the left wing don’t always have the right answers. I am reading more of the New York Times now and I believe that is an acceptable source for news and information.

My concern as outlined in the second link is that the bill contains provisions that money has been set aside to allow the government to compare the effectiveness of different treatment for the same illness. In my mind this could be good but could also be bad. I believe from my limited knowledge that each person responds differently to the same treatment. I have seen it in my own family. So I am concerned that the government will come up with a set of guidelines that doctors will have to follow in providing medical treatment. For example I see my doctor and s/he says I need surgery on a rotator cuff - which I have had surgery in the past ten years. With new guideline in place according to this bill if my husband sees the same doctor s/he could or would have to follow guidelines set forth by a government agency that says all rotator cuff problems must have cortisone injections followed up by physical therapy rather than surgery. This is a rough comparison, but one that does concern me.

I want my doctor to be able to provide the treatment he sees best for me given his medical training and his knowledge of me. I don’t want the government to set forth guild lines that he has to follow that may be contrary to what he considers the best medical treatment for me. Maybe I am reading this wrong, but it is how I translate it.

I watched the video and have to agree is was enlightening - gotta do more research and reading. How am I going to fit that all in.

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby Wise One » 2009 Feb 16 11:08

Nice comments and links, thanks Beckonwood.
beckonwood wrote:My concern ... is that the bill contains provisions ...to allow the government to compare the effectiveness of different treatment for the same illness ... I don’t want the government to set forth guild lines that he has to follow that may be contrary to what he considers the best medical treatment for me.

Please re-read your second reference. Your fears are unfounded. The bill provides only that the government will fund research. (As you read, be careful to distinguish between what the bill actually provides for, and what alarmist fear mongers extrapolate might happen in the indefinite future.)

All good doctors want information about the relative effectiveness of treatment options. As they do already, doctors will draw on all available information to make the best choice for the specific individual in the specific situation.
:hiding2: Knowing the statistical effectiveness of various treatment options is better than willful ignorance. :hiding2:

PS. If it is not clear what is going on here, let me make it so. Big Pharm is simply delighted to sell you a $100-per-dose drug, even when another works better and costs only $1-per-dose. Doctors frequently have no way of knowing which is better, because relative effectiveness information is deliberately withheld from the public by Big Pharm. Government can serve a helpful function to doctors by supporting independent evaluation of the effectiveness of all the options out there. Doctors are ecstatic at the prospect of finally seeing this!
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby resigned » 2009 Feb 16 11:26

Thanks for the explanation. I will re-read it again.

I understand that included in the bill (besides the kitchen sink) is the funding for research for the specific treatments etc. I believe that is good, but I would have preferred it and some of the other items included in separate bills. It seems that those in Congress figured they were going on a long trip and packed their bags with more clothes than they needed. Not a very good reference but one that came to mind. So I will keep reading the dagone thing.

This spell check on the Fire fox is good but it doesn't come up with the correct spelling as the Microsoft office does. Guess we can't have it all.

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby Wise One » 2009 Feb 16 15:03

beckonwood wrote:I understand that included in the bill ...is the funding for research for the specific treatments ...

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, but my own understanding is that there is no funding for research on specific treatments.

There is funding for research to compare the relative effectiveness of many treatments, that is, attempting to evaluate how well already-developed treatments work and at what cost compared to each other.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

10thFO

Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby 10thFO » 2009 Feb 16 18:04

Wise One, please never post another link to anything that Keith Olberman has said or thinks. Talk about a boob. The man was a sports anaylyst. For some reason NBC picked him up. He is the biggest Democratic flamer I have seen on TV recently. Remember there is a reason he got kicked off of the Presidential Debate coverage. Biased, to the nth degree....

ALSO, anyone who think that computerized records are a good thing for healthcare, has their damn head stuck in the sand. It took me 2 years to get my SS number straightened out with the SSA, because some jacko had punched in the wrong numbers for my birthdate and year. If people's premise is that Dr.'s handwritings are too hard to read, then what do you think about the people in Indonesia they are paying to translate all these records into "typed, electronic form". I guarantee you anyone who thinks this is an improvement, has never dealt with the VA hospital.

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby Coondog » 2009 Feb 16 18:28

Centralized, computerized health records?

Yep! There's a recipe for disaster.

I think it's a better idea if we have our health records encoded into the microchips in our brians. That way, an overworked nurse's aid won't type in the wrong number and confuse me with some cross bred Water Spaniel in Tierra del Fuego who's up for the spay and neutering program. :knife:

:hail: Coondog

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Re: So Called Stimulus Bill

Postby Trend Setter » 2009 Feb 16 19:14

10thFO wrote:ALSO, anyone who think that computerized records are a good thing for healthcare, has their damn head stuck in the sand.

It sounds as though you have had poor experiences with our present health care information system.

Which, I think, is the whole point. It's bad and needs fixing, because it is killing people and wasting our money. For example, medical facilities, now, have to redo diagnostic tests that were already done at another facility, because there is no seamless way of always moving records, including complete files containing x-rays, MRI scans, microbe culture results, etc., with the patient. (In the future, these records will increasingly contain complex DNA maps and analyses, so that doctors can tailor therapies to the specific genetic makeup of each patient.)

And if you think that any significant improvement will ever occur using quill pens and parchment, rather than computers, I would suggest, Sir, that your damn head is stuck in the sand.

:nono: Pssst! It is 2009. Maybe you didn't get the memo.