Who would you rather?

harleygrl35

Who would you rather?

Postby harleygrl35 » 2008 Feb 04 07:42

A friend from another board I visit posted this and I was curious to see what the "local" opinion is.
There are only three options, Hilary, Obama, or not casting a vote.

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fangz1956
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Re: Who would you rather?

Postby fangz1956 » 2008 Feb 04 15:59

None of the above. If these were my sole choices, I would exercise my option to not vote. I see these two as one in the same ....politicians who will trade on race and gender rather than real issues. Who needs that?


:2cent:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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fangz1956
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Re: Who would you rather?

Postby fangz1956 » 2008 Feb 09 08:58

John Howard and Tony Blair..............the boot licking lap dogs of King George.

I read these posts and the thought that sprang to mind was: What would Jesus do? Would he espouse hate like Howard? Would he demand and coerce conformance? The answer to those questions is a resounding NO!!!!!!!

I think I'll stay out of your churches thank you very much. If that is the kind of attitude that prevails amongst the "Godly" and the "Christian"...................I can live quite well without it.

The "Godly Christians" who:

Support corrupt governments

Espouse hate toward anyone who is different or believes differently than they

Think they are superior to any other human being

Think their way is the only way and their way is most assuredly always Right (pun intended)

Are so pro-war yet claim to be pro-life...............which one is it as you can't have it both ways or selective application of it

Claim brotherly love but practice intolerance


Thanks but no thanks. I'll stick with the branded back-sliding heathens of the world......you know, those troublemakers and evil-doers like the gays, the war protesters, the pro-choice crowd.............all those groups that the "Godly" actually fear because.......never mind, it's worth any more breath as they just don't get it.


:2cent:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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Wise One
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I had a really tough time making up my mind

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 13 10:06

Transformative Politics
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:wink: Transformative Politics :wink:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

harleygrl35

Re: Who would you rather?

Postby harleygrl35 » 2008 Feb 15 09:13

Watch out beck, because you know WO is gonna cut you down at the knees for that one. I, like you, am not a sheep. I abhor what this country has become.


I'm tired. Tired of all the rhetoric. Tired of seeing our nation on a path from this: Poor........Middle Class.........Rich, to this: Poor...............................................Rich. If anyone thinks that's not the path we're on, they need to pull their heads out of the sand. I started this thread hoping to get a little debate going, Instead, it gets personal. Which is one of the reasons I don't visit here very often anymore. Have an opinion that differs from someone else's ? Well here, let me send you links so I can bring you around to my POV. Still disagree? Well, let me make you feel as if you are an idiot, and that your opinion is insignificant. :roll:

I don't pretend to be a person with above average intelligence, but I'd rather be me anyday, than an idiot savant. How's that for personal?

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Wise One
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Re: Who would you rather?

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 15 09:44

Hey, HG, I never cut at the knees. Sure, I argue points with passion and, I hope, truth. Which is what I take to be the point of this little forum enterprise.

So, please, continue to argue yours as forcefully as you can. Persuade. Cajole. Charm. We wait with bated breath!

:dance14: You are dead right about the wealth distribution. Bush has dragged us back to the robber baron era:
a few "Astors", "Rockefellers" and "Vanderbilts" - and hordes of folks barely scraping by. :dance14:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

harleygrl35

Re: Who would you rather?

Postby harleygrl35 » 2008 Feb 15 10:49

You know the problem with "truth", right? One person's "truth" is very rarely anothers. Even the people who still think that our country hasn't went to hell in a handbasket in the past eight years, still believe that what GW spews is the gospel "truth". Maybe it is....to them. However, all I know is my truth. Which is that I'm a hell of a lot worse off now than I was 10 years ago.
Do you think the lower, middle class truth is the same as the truth of the people making over $250,000 a year?
While I always enjoy your posts and most of the time agree with your opinions, I've also seen you not only be a bit harsh, but sometimes condescending as well. I don't mean that as an insult. I'm just stating the view from my screen.

Now, as for my poll, I still have no idea who I plan to vote for. Is is a case of better the devil you know (Hilary) than the devil you don't (Obama)? What I do know is that I'm ready for a change, and so far, from what I've seen, Obama seems to be the one of the candidates willing to try to make that happen.



Oh and btw, I don't know if any of you ever watch American Idol, but that picture that WO posted looks a lot like this kid Sanjaya from last years show. :shock:

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Wise One
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Re: Who would you rather?

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 15 11:02

:clap: Well said! :clap:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Wise One
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Re: Who would you rather?

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 15 17:17

Yup -- it's a business opportunity!

:wink: And don't forget booze, cigarettes, porn stores and rabbinical paraphernalia. :wink:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Wise One
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Re: Who would you rather?

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 15 21:41

beckonwood wrote:HG, I agree with you a hundred percent regarding WO. In fact I feel I'm a little shorter now.

I feel so guilty! Out of consideration for dear Beckonwood, I'm scouring the internet for leads on a way to compensate.

If her stature has been diminished by my insensitive expressions of opinion, then I must make amends].

:wink: Jes' tryin' to help, ma'am. :wink:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Wise One
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Re: Who would you rather?

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 16 16:25

Thanks and I appreciate the alert, Beckonwood. I must protest, in the following sense only.

To me it is not "attack mode" to state and defend an opinion, positive or negative. I have never attacked the person on this Forum, and never will. (Well, with the exception of public figures and politicians, but who can resist?)

Ideas, on the other hand, are perfectly fair game -- indeed, that is the whole point of the Forum. You may attack my ideas, postings, and positions to your heart's delight and I will never consider that to be an attack on my person. Please extend that liberty to the rest of us.

I do welcome, really I do, all expressions of opinion, whether they agree with mine or not. I love to see views different from my own, and I love to argue my own point of view in hopes that dialog will help us all converge on Truth.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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fangz1956
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Re: Who would you rather?

Postby fangz1956 » 2008 Feb 26 17:09

Aaahhhhh.......we needn't worry about a thing in this perfect nation of ours. We have a Savior in the making and he's running for President. Surely, HE will unite us all.........yeah, right!

http://obamamessiah.blogspot.com


:help2:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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Wise One
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Re: Who would you rather?

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 26 18:46

If you think George W. Bush has been super duper, then you should vote for John McCain. All the signs point to more of the same with McCain, since he's personally renounced his prior claims to the only shred of decency and moral independence left in the Republican party. He had to do it to capture the far right wacko vote.

The prospect of more of this appalls me, but it seems right up the Republican alley and you should be turning cartwheels of joy.

The tea leaves at the moment point at Barack Obama as Democratic nominee, but this could all change Tuesday. He would be a change for the better and would at least give us a chance for returning America to the company of honorable and decent nations.

Republican lip service to fiscal responsibility is just that. They spend like drunken sailors, so long as the money goes to their rich cronies rather than to real national needs, all the while humming the mindless mantra of "lower taxes." There's a much greater chance of responsibly balancing income to outgo with any Democrat.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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fangz1956
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Re: Who would you rather?

Postby fangz1956 » 2008 Feb 26 19:25

Some of my views may be left-leaning but that is better than extremist right. And, from what I have been reading in the European news (their views on this election) what we consider far left here is still considered to the right to them.

So, if supporting the Constitution, believing that less government is better, and supporting peace as opposed to blood for oil wars, then call me left. I could care less..............a label is meaningless and as I've said before, it only promotes diviseness and disunity. Those are two things this country can ill afford at this point in time. Unfortunately, this election is more of the same old, same old. I wouldn't vote for Obama if he was the last candidate running..........nor do I support Clinton or McCain. It will be another year of voting for the lesser of the evils instead of having a real choice..........but that's the way the monied elite wish to keep it. Until we have a citizenry that is NOT apathetic and lazy, we are destined for more of the same thing. Don't you ever wonder who is really pulling the strings and controlling the game?


:2cent:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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Wise One
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Re: Who would you rather?

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 26 20:27

Nice posting, fangz. I am intrigued, however, over why you "wouldn't vote for Obama if he was the last candidate running" and would love to hear you elaborate.

Every candidate has plusses and minuses, but I can think of nearly a dozen dozen candidates with negatives waaaaay worse than Obama's.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Wise One
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Politics

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 26 21:10

Thanks for the fine posting, Beckonwood. It's tempting to respond, so here goes.
beckonwood wrote:if our country ran out of oil tomorrow there would be a hue and cry never heard before ...
This is a red herring, in the sense that it is impossible to "run out of oil." The laws of economics require the price to vary so as to cause the supply of oil exactly to match its demand. That said, government can affect the price mildly by a variety of means:
  • Subsidies (unwise because they are always unsustainable and distort both demand and supply sides of the market),
  • Taxes (wiser, because they can moderate demand during a bridge period to give revenues for investment in next-generation energy technologies),
  • Supply mandates (almost always ill-conceived, because they are either wrong or dominated by politics, corn-based ethanol being a prime example,
  • Who cares? If one form of energy becomes too expensive, we move on to the next most attractive one. I bet you are not using whale oil to light your home any more!
beckonwood wrote:I especially didn’t like his having sex in my house and on my time.
This had a certain ick factor, but that was always Hillary's problem, not a public problem until vindictive Republicans insisted on making it one. I don't much like "W"'s famously long naps and vacations, Cheney's shooting at everything in sight, sometimes including humans, or Nixon's burning fossil fuel (natural gas) in his fireplace in July -- but I must concede none of these things have much to do with the quality of government.
beckonwood wrote:I believe we all want the same things, freedom, a chance to live a good life, help for those in need, to be the best we can be, to have no crime and good health for our children, to never have to go to war, to have honest politicians, a government that is best…
Amen!
beckonwood wrote:I believe in marriage as between man and woman.
Me too. I wouldn't diminish the right of any man or woman to marry each other. But you (inadvertently?) left out about 10% of the population who are honorable, contribute to society, and have an orientation that is different from yours and mine. If they want a similar union, it's fine by me -- it will not hurt the rest of us one iota and will substantially strengthen American families.
beckonwood wrote:I have written an essay but just get tired of some of the terms used in this forum. So I spoke out.
And I'm glad you did ... keep it up!
beckonwood wrote: ... cowboys were my heroes growing up.
Thank you. Thank you very much. I may be one of the few people here who actually was a cowboy at a point in my life. (I bet you're surprised!)
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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fangz1956
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Re: Who would you rather?

Postby fangz1956 » 2008 Feb 27 06:49

Hmmm.......Obama. I've been reading tons about this man and his campaign. To date, I've found nothing of substance and no real meat as to how his supposed plans for Change would work. I've read and listened to lots of glowing rhetoric and seen a lot of smoke and mirrors. Included in some of the reading have been notes from folks in Illinois...........the place that the good Senator represents. To date, he has done nothing for his constituency in the realm of real change. If he can't adequately serve a single state, then how can he possibly do justice by 50 of them plus the Territories. I don't think he can. Another inexperienced President is a disaster in the making and we may well wind up worse off than we are now. This has become a race about race rather than issues.......and he's not even the only black running. Unfortunately for this country and for the voters, the media coronates the King at the whim and will of the monied elite. The lesser knowns don't stand a chance and never will as long as this practice is allowed to continue.............they have the power to sell us anything they wish and what they sell us is generally not in the best interest of the nation as a whole but rather benefits select special interest groups.

I find it interesting in an unsettling way that Romney's religion became a crucial factor in his campaign downfall..........but not a single entity has questioned Obama's religion or church affiliation. Wonder why that is? Could it be the double standard and the power of the money behind the throne? I think so. I know that the religious leanings of a candidate should never be part of the debate, but the media and the money made it one-sidedly so. Even Huckabee's religious leanings have not come under the fire that Romney's did..............not fair. What should hold true for one should hold true for all.
The recent endorsement of Obama by Louis Farrakan did not do a damn thing except make me question further how this man has gotten as far as he has in this race. The swooning masses at his rallies and speeches give me cause for concern. The sheeple are blindly following without research and without question..............and most of them haven't a clue as to why or what the man actually represents.

Reading and following news reports and blogs from around the world, this man's rise to power and glory is nothing short of disturbing. I did this because I wanted to find out the world view on this election process and what the rest of the world sees and thinks. This is akin to the Second Coming of Christ and I don't buy it for one hot minute......and this seems to be a world-wide view. He's the savior of America and of the world..............puhleeeeez. Charisma and charm are great traits but that is all this person seems to have...........we still don't know the real plan or the true agenda. But I can guess in my jaded and cynical ways. And while his plans for change may sound good in theory and on paper, how in the world does he plan to fund these changes? At least we know that Hillary's Universal Healthcare Plan will be funded by the garnishment of wages of the working class. Thanks but no thanks. My best cynical guesses here are that we will see discrimination in reverse (his wife really disturbs me as she strikes me as an angry black woman with her own agenda), the final breaking of the middle and working classes as we fall under the monetary crush of funding Obama's "change"......and like it or not and despite all of his blathering about diplomacy over aggression, we will see the bombing of Iran and possibly Pakistan.

Most of his following do not even know what he stands for.............they are falling for the illusion of Hope and Change. Well, Hell anything would be a change after 8 years of the disastrous Dubya. This process is more of a game than I had ever imagined until I began following this campaign. The reading has been illuminating as well as disheartening. And in this game, the people are the pawns and the snake oil salesmen like Obama could really care less.

And would somebody do me a favor and sew Oprah's mouth shut?


:2cent:

A footnote on Gay Marriage and Domestic Partner healthcare benefits: I see no harm in gay marriage and they should be accorded the same rights, privildges, and benefits as the rest of us. But a few years back, my employer instituted Domestic Partner Healthcare Benefits. I am happy that they did this but it has been done with a discriminatory clause. It only applies and is available to partners of the same sex living together. It does not apply nor is it available to anyone else cohabitating with a domestic partner. When I asked about this (I was living with someone at the time who desperately needed healtcare benefits) they said we were excluded because we technically had the right of getting married. Say what?? Would the same hold true if that partner happened to be my sister or brother? What about an adult child or an ailing and aging aunt or cousin? This issue most definitely needs to be revisited and changed so that it is something that ALL Americans can possibly benefit from, regardless of their living arrangements.


http://www.factcheck.org/obamas_creative_clippings.html

Sounds like an over-inflated, pompous, egotist to me. :wink:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

harleygrl35

Re: Who would you rather?

Postby harleygrl35 » 2008 Feb 27 11:00

beckonwood wrote:My referance to Clinton and his sex life is that I believe that the committment in a marriage is the most important committment in one's life. I feel that if a person can't keep that committment then how can we count on that person to keep other important committments. I had interns under me during my years of serving as Director of Social Services and if I had, had sex with one of them I would have been fired.

As for same sex marriage, I simply don't agree with it. In NJ for example they have medical coverage for partners. I wish that could have been applied to my mother and brother who llived together for over 20 years. She could not afford health care after she retired. They lived together because my brother provided a house for her and she provided a home for him. It would have been great if he could have carried her on his insurance plan. But they were mother and son and not same sex partners. That really angered me. Putting that aside. I don't agree with same sex marriage, yet at the same time I don't believe gay people should be treated poorly. I worked side by side with a couple of nurses who lived in a same sex partnership, liked them very much and we debated this issue several times. I understood their feelings but could not accept the relationship. It simply goes against my beliefs.

Good points on the oil factor. But give me some leeway. I know we won't run out of oil, well someday we will as we will run out of water. But if we did run out of oil regardless of what people would not understand. They are so dependent upon oil that they wouldn't know what else to do. People are so used to electricity they don't know how to live without it. I grew up without electricty until I was ten. I know what it's like. I was trying to make a point.

Glad to hear you were a cowboy. I grew up with Gene Autry, Roy Rogers, Sunset Carson, I can't remember all the names. But when we finally got electricity we got a TV. I loved all the cowboy shows. I remember dressing up like a cowgirl, the hat and guns strapped to my waist and went into the living room and asked my family if I looked like a cowgirl and my older brother said no more like a cow. I think I was ten at that time.

Ah we all have our opinions.....am watching the debate between the two Dem. rivals. Would love to have a woman president but not Hillary, believe Obama gives good speaches but not sure what he has said. Don't like MCaine. What to do.



Beck, you know I value your opinions, so don't take any of this personally.

I'm sick to death of hearing about Clintons sexual escapades. I do not care what he did in his private life, he wasn't the only president to run around on his wife, he was the only one that got caught. I can think of far worse impeachable offenses, how about lying to your country and having more soldiers die day after day in a war built on that lie?
Marriage is NOT the most important commitment in a person's life, and I won't elaborate, because that would lead to a religious debate that I'm just not up for today. Although I'm coming dangerously close in the rest of this post.

As for gay marriage. I'm all for it, well, at the very least, civil unions. It angers me when people bring religion into this. The God I believe in made all of us equally, and yes, I believe he made homosexuals. I believe the majority of gay people are born that way. I believe they were put on this earth as a test of love, compassion, graciousness and tolerance for all of His kids. I have seen gay couples that put a lot of straight couples to shame. I have seen gay couples raising the most loving children, who I believe are going to grow up to be the kind of adults we need more of in this world. When is this going to stop being an issue? Yep, I know what the bible says about it. But, I also know what it says about loving brothers, casting stones and judging not...

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Wise One
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Re: Who would you rather?

Postby Wise One » 2008 Mar 30 16:04

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"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Amy Probenski
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Suspend the Gasoline Tax?

Postby Amy Probenski » 2008 Apr 30 12:40

If I were on the fence between Hillary and Barack, this issue certainly decides it for me. Hillary announced she favors suspending the gasoline tax.

Hers is a blatant act of cynical pandering, the direct opposite of the position that a responsible public official should be taking in these times.

Tom Friedman today says it best in this Op-Ed column.

Hillary :violent5: Me (and I paid the tax on this gasoline)