N.Y. Mosque

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Should Muslims be allowed to build a mosque in N.Y.

Yes
9
90%
No
1
10%
 
Total votes : 10

N.Y. Mosque

Postby historyforall » 2010 Aug 17 12:12

Simple question should Muslims be able to build a mosque in New York City or any place they want in this country?
I believe in the rights and freedoms of a person even when I don't support them on a moral or fundamental basis.
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Coondog » 2010 Aug 17 12:46

Like all local matters, there are those opposed on a purely emotional basis. That's America!

Whereas the political hucksters who harbor either real or feigned Islamophobia have decided to use it as a devisive ideological tool.....opportunistic fear mongering......and yet another opportunity to distort, misinform and display the kind of hypocracy that now comes as second nature.

Legality and constitutionality don't seem to be an issue!

:hail: Coondog

It's like......building a dawg house next door to Michael Vic!
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2010 Aug 17 13:23

The shrill bigotry heard everywhere over "the ground zero Mosque" is revolting.

Keith's commentary is just perfect, reminding us of what American values used to be before right wing crazies took over most everything:

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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Wise One » 2010 Aug 18 11:37

Glenn Greenwald wrote: Lemon: Don't you think it's a bit different considering what happened on 9/11? And the people have said there's a need for it in Lower Manhattan, so that's why it's being built there. What about 10, 20 blocks . . . Midtown Manhattan, considering the circumstances behind this? That's not understandable?

Patel: In America, we don't tell people based on their race or religion or ethnicity that they are free in this place, but not in that place --

Lemon: [interrupting] I understand that, but there's always context, Mr. Patel . . . this is an extraordinary circumstance. You understand that this is very heated. Many people lost their loved ones on 9/11 --

Patel: Including Muslim Americans who lost their loved ones. . . .

Lemon: Consider the context here. That's what I'm talking about.

Patel: I have to tell you that this seems a little like telling black people 50 years ago: you can sit anywhere on the bus you like - just not in the front.

Lemon: I think that's apples and oranges - I don't think that black people were behind a Terrorist plot to kill people and drive planes into a building. That's a completely different circumstance.

Patel: And American Muslims were not behind the terrorist plot either.
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby lexingtonrick » 2010 Aug 18 16:19

Re your survey question. There are already over 100 mosques in the greater N.Y. City area.
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Trend Setter » 2010 Aug 21 08:10

Dick Cavett on the mosque ... remember him?

I favor no restrictions whatever on the practice of religion by non-government parties. This is not an original thought ― it's in the Constitution.

I also favor no government preferences for religion. None. I think this is also in the Constitution, but evidently the courts disagree regarding tax preferences.

I'd end all tax exemptions for all religious institutions and all nonprofits and all other entities currently absolved from paying the taxes the rest of us must. Republicans, whose only consistent policy position is "cut my taxes" would object,of course . Which is crazy, because this step would allow a 50% cut in tax rates for people now paying taxes while raising the same revenue.
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Sam » 2010 Aug 21 11:30

Well folks, wasn't going to comment, but after reading and listening, decided to ask the questions, "does anyone know anything about the folks or person, and the funding behind this mosque? I am curious. I believe in religious freedoms, but also believe in being sensitive to other's feelings etc. How about a Japanese memorial at Pearl Harbor, wonder how others would feel about that? Also heard something about the shariah Islamic law. Isn't that the same law the permits stoning of women among other laws that keep women down so to speak. Just wondering if this mosque would practice that kind of law? Just some food for thought.
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Wise One » 2010 Aug 21 13:11

Sam wrote:Well folks, wasn't going to comment, but after reading and listening, decided to ask the questions, "does anyone know anything about the folks or person, and the funding behind this mosque? I am curious.
He is an admirable person , one who has been chosen to represent the United States government's policies regarding tolerance and moderation.
I believe in religious freedoms, but also believe in being sensitive to other's feelings etc. How about a Japanese memorial at Pearl Harbor, wonder how others would feel about that?
This is a ridiculous question because it asks what we would do if a foreign power took an action to build a memorial on American soil.

The proposed community center is not "a memorial." American Muslims are not a foreign power. American Catholics are not a foreign power. American Episcopalians are not a foreign power. American Baptists are not a foreign power. All enjoy equal protection under the law, in particular immunity granted by the Constitution against any adverse action directed at a religious group for religious reasons.
Also heard something about the shariah Islamic law. Isn't that the same law the permits stoning of women among other laws that keep women down so to speak. Just wondering if this mosque would practice that kind of law?
Again, these seem pointless questions. All persons in the United States are subject to the laws of the United States. All persons, of all religious persuasions, may propose changes to law under our Constitution's guarantee of free speech, but they are firmly and forcefully obliged to obey US law until those changes are made.

I don't lose a lot of sleep worrying that the Rockbridge County Board of Supervisors will pass an ordinance allowing the stoning of my wife for driving our car while not wearing her burka.

:coffee: On second thought ....
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby fangz1956 » 2010 Aug 22 05:14

Sam,

You have to overlook WO every once in a blue moon. Like I always tell my staff.........NO question is pointless or stupid.

And thank you, WO....for providing the links with additional information and answers to at least one of Sam's questions.

I, for one, do not have enough hours in the day to read every bit of news that gets printed. The majority of my brain (the part that hasn't been fried by wax and floor stripper fumes...along with cement dust mixed with carpet padding and glue dust).......is working overtime just to keep up with an avalanche of technical changes for my dang job.

I agree though.......let this be built and built in peace. This country is long overdue for that kind of peace and tolerance. The wingnuts need to get the knots outta their panties and get a real life.

:coffee:
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Sam » 2010 Aug 22 10:20

Now I remember why I have stayed off this forum. The put down's sure aren't condusive to quality discussion. Fangz do appreciate the posting.
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Wise One » 2010 Aug 22 14:52

My apologies to Sam for a hasty and intemperate response, specifically in using the words "ridiculous" and "pointless".

It was born of certain knowledge that the manufacturers of this phony controversy have only hatred and prejudice and selfish gain as their motives.

What I failed to acknowledge is that Sam is certainly not the originator of this bile. He may only be asking honest questions as he tries to get to the bottom of inflammatory allegations. (They came from FoxTV and their ilk, Limbaugh/Hannity/O'Reilly/etc.)

Which I do now acknowledge, in the hope that he will forgive. I'll bite my tongue next time, will assume that this stuff originates with the right wing hate machine and not with him personally, and that Sam is only probing us all responsibly to find the truth.
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Amy Probenski » 2010 Aug 23 07:51

Thankfully, this phenomenon is far from Kristallnacht just yet, but it is sadly reminiscent of the stages that led up to Kristallnacht. And what followed.

More news on this disgraceful bigotry.
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Coondog » 2010 Aug 23 17:19

Sam! I learned something new today. This is some factual information I never heard before and I think you (and a lot of other people) would benefit from this information.........
FAREED ON AL QAEDA'S MYSTICAL ENEMY
Have you heard of Sufi Islam? Well, Al Qaeda sure has.

It is the mystical brand of Islam that embraces a more liberal interpretation of the Koran. Sufism embraces music and song. It is an interpretation that Al Qaeda views as its mortal enemy.

It is also the sect of Islam embraced by the Imam of the Islamic center near Ground Zero. Watch as Fareed takes a look at what lies behind Sufism...and why Al Qaeda's hatred of it should inform us about where Imam Rauf stands on the Islamic spectrum.

Watch HERE .
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/08/22/gps.fareeds.take.sufism.cnn

The business of transferance of our hates and fears onto the wrong people for the wrong reasons is a shameful blight on a country that prides itself so much on freedom and justice.

:hail: Coondog

Trust the Force!
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Wise One » 2010 Aug 24 10:54

And Sam, here's something that might get us all to lighten up and have a giggle:


"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Sam » 2010 Aug 25 08:49

Well Folks, just dropped in and saw your efforts directed toward me. First of all let me say I am not as good with words as many of you are. I was college educated and worked for the federal government after coming out of the Army. As a man in his seventies, I have lived some and seen much. I see myself as old fashioned, was raised that way and still believe in many of those old beliefs. But, I am open to other’s point of view. Some would call me conservative.

I believe if you folks or others want to get those who disagree to come around to your way of thinking or at least consider it, listening to their point of view is important and vise versa. Many in our country do not listen to the other’s differing viewpoints. As my dear old Mama always told me, honey draws more flies than vinegar.
I understand how those who are against the Mosque feel. I know that when you discuss Muslims, the first thing that comes to mind is the many abusive and horrific things you see and hear in our news and I mean all news. By the way I watch Fox as well as other news shows and am not going to apologize for it. I feel that some on this forum are way one sided. Hey Folks that’s the way I see it. I am posting my reply with some hesitation.

I know that when the planes flew into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, I and my family were horrified. I still haven’t gotten over those feelings. I wonder if America is ready for a Mosque near Ground Zero. I understand that you will have some who are intolerant no matter what. Then others are sensitive or against it because of their feelings. When I first posted here I was discussing feelings. I know from living here in America that our country has not always nor never will be tolerant of all races, religions, races etc. We have a long history of intolerance. But as Patrick Henry once said, “My country, right or wrong, but my country” Hopefully I got that right. I feel as a Christian that my religion has been trampled on. To be truthful, I am afraid of how Muslims will impact on our country in regards to what we know and have grown up with. I would point out that many probably feel the same. Are we right or wrong, many would say wrong. But that is how we feel. It’s how we act on our feelings that we come to a crossroads.

I have tried to read up on this Iman Rauf and the Surfism - still don’t have a handle on that one. But I did read that the Iman in 2005 made a speech outside of the USA in which he mentioned that America has more Muslim blood on its hands than Al Qaida. I also read that he compared the Islamic belief with the US Constitution. I belief we need more information on this man. I believe he was appointed by George Bush.

OK Folks that’s my take. Many on this forum put down those on the right and I believe we have good people on both sides. I am tentative to continue posting for fear of being trampled on. Yet I acknowledge your recent postings directed toward me. Dare I continue? I don’t know. Will see.
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Wise One » 2010 Aug 25 09:36

Thanks for that, Sam ... well written, clearly stating your views, and surely welcome as an addition to the discussions that take place here.

I'd comment on some of the points you raised, but maybe this time I'm the one feeling a little skittish about doing so.

I love to discuss and debate ideas and issues, but am always dismayed when criticism of an idea is confused with criticism of the person who states it. I love the former and hate the latter and really try not to do so.

If someone posts "I think the Muzak they play on elevators is wonderful music", I might respond "Muzak is an invention of the devil and makes me want to vomit." What I really mean by that is that, to me, Muzak ain't that great. I'll always believe the person who happens to like it is probably an admirable human being and is certainly entitled to whatever enjoyment he may derive from listening to it and should feel free to express his admiration for the art form.

But if that person should state that Muzak was invented by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, then I will challenge him on a misstatement of fact. If, knowing it is a lie, he buys a large TV network and embeds repeated statements in all its programs that "Mozart invented Muzak," I will probably start to believe that the person is evil and will say anything to destroy Mozart's reputation.
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Coondog » 2010 Aug 26 13:37

I feel as a Christian that my religion has been trampled on. To be truthful, I am afraid of how Muslims will impact on our country in regards to what we know and have grown up with. I would point out that many probably feel the same. Are we right or wrong, many would say wrong. But that is how we feel. It’s how we act on our feelings that we come to a crossroads.

Feelings! Emotions! We all have them.....and of late there seems to be a concerted effort by various persons or groups for various reasons and purposes, to stir them up. Fear and mistrust of people who look different from us, think different from us, act different from us is latent within everyone. Mostly they lie dormant. Monumental events, or the constant reminder of monumental events....or carefully crafted lies, serve to bring these into cognizance and occasionally result in overt action.

Animosity between Christians and Muslims goes back a long way. Most of that stems from political rather than religious differences. But when politics (nationalism) and religion become fused, fear and mistrust abounds and, too often, rationalism goes completely out the window. Separation of government and religion has served us well. Government is a pragmatic approach to implementation of a system of laws, whereas religion is an emotional approach to the supernatural.

The Middle East is rife with examples of the pitfalls of the marriage between politics and religion. A lot of people evacuated Europe to come here to get away from that kind of stuff. And, while the assertion that the country was founded on Christian principles has merit, there is a difference between Christian Principles and Christianity, per se. Events such as the purported "Ground Zero Mosque" test our adherance to Christian Principles and, in my view, we are sadly lacking in that regard.

There are elements in this country who feel they benefit from divisive misconstruction and manipulation of emotions for personal or political advantage. For all intents and purposes, it seems to be working. And not only over the paganistic worship of that "hallowed ground" in New York.

Coupled with this nationalistic/religious attitude is the paradoxical worship of the Constitution while at the same time, exhibiting selective disdain for its implementation. The voices from which the Mosque controversy devolved are the same who maintain that there are members of Congress who are unAmerican and they are referred to as enemies because they seek to enact legislation and policies they were duly elected to enact. This is not the kind of rhetoric that creates an environment of unity, cooperation, trust, tolerance or respect. It is divisive and hateful and preys on our emotions to the advantage of.......................who?

Becoming increasingly similar in temperament to Middle Eastern Radical Islamic terrorists is (again, in my view) unlikely to provide Victory in any sense. While that temperament has generally been shared by Conservative Christian Fundamentalists for a long time, the fact that it is becoming popular among a growing number of the populace does not bode well.

It is said that the mood of the country......the will of the people precludes Innocent American Muslims from community involvement near that "hallowed ground". Well, a lynch mob is an expression of the will of the people. That's why we have laws and elect people to execute those laws. Unfortunately, those put there to serve the constitutional integrity of the law are elected by an ever increasingly misinformed, undereducated mob of voters ruled by emotions rather than intelligence.

Coondog

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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Amy Probenski » 2010 Aug 26 16:11

Sam wrote: But as Patrick Henry once said, “My country, right or wrong, but my country” Hopefully I got that right.
Sam, I looked it up and found this:
On returning home in April 1816, Stephen Decator was feted as the Conqueror of Araby. It was at one such banquet that he raised his glass and spoke the words,

"Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong."

It's a warrior's toast, direct and unembellished, but it has a lot to say to any citizen but there's that qualifying phrase — 'may she always be in the right', that succeeds in taking any sting out of the concluding words. In truth, there's nothing at all of belligerence in this quotation. Nothing of war, or jingoism, or national superiority. It's a statement about ideals, about what our country should be, and what we have to do to make her so.

A few years earlier, Edmund Burke had written, 'To make us love our country, our country ought to be lovely.' That's exactly what Decatur, in the way of a sailor, was also saying.

Sam wrote:I feel as a Christian that my religion has been trampled on.
Sam, I do not understand. In America, of all places in the world, why do you feel that religion is trampled here? I cannot think of any place on the planet where religion is less trampled on! Indeed, it is those who do not wear the mantle of religiosity who seem, to me, to get trampled. Can you imagine a governor or president getting elected anywhere in the country if he should admit he is not religious? The vast majority of Americans are Christian and the trampling is usually of non-Christians, as is the case now in New York City. The tax laws give all sorts of preferences and deductions to religion. Freedom of religion is in our Constitution and any law attacking it would quickly be struck down. Of course there are hateful individual people everywhere, and that is hardly an American phenomenon.

Sam wrote: To be truthful, I am afraid of how Muslims will impact on our country...
You are free to quake in your boots over anything you like. Enjoy your fears, with my blessing. But in America, we do not empower government to act against one religion harshly just because someone is afraid. It's unconstitutional, it's illegal, and it's unwise.

Iman Rauf ... mentioned that America has more Muslim blood on its hands than Al Qaida.
Yes, he said something to that effect, which doesn't sound like a very favorable thing to say about the United States. Now, my question to you: is his statement true or false? Please consider the actual facts, the numbers of people killed by airplanes on 9/11, by US sanctions against Iraq, in both Iraq and Afghanistan wars, by both Americans and Al Qaida. Let's find the truth here. What is it?
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Re: N.Y. Mosque

Postby Sam » 2010 Aug 26 19:23

Well Folks, I see I started something. Not sure what. But will try to respond. Feel like the mouse the cat was waiting for. First of all you all need to understand I am coming from a visceral level. I discuss my feelings as just those, feelings. We all can’t help how we feel but it is how we act on those feelings that can either be good or bad. I was sharing feelings that many in our country probably feel. I think that well over 60 percent feel that way about the Mosque. Now I may not have the numbers right so I imagine someone will jump on me. I do hope the essence of what I am trying to say comes through. Do they have the constitutional right to build in NY - yes. But in my way of thinking it sure has caused a ruckus.

As for my religion, things have changed considerably since I was a youngster. I remember praying in school, having prayers said in school, discussing Christmas etc. As I grew up I have seen the word Christmas changed to Holidays, nativity scenes not allowed to be displayed in certain places and prayer taken out of school. These were images that created in me certain feelings that made me feel good. It has been difficult to see these changes. I understand why but that still doesn’t change how I feel.

As for what the Imam said and just what the truth is, goodness me. Is this a test I must meet in order to participate here. I couldn’t tell you. But I am sure you are ready to set me straight.
I fought for our country in Viet Nam and have always loved this country. I have always tried to live a good and honest life. I worked hard and raised a nice family. I never asked anything from anybody. I have always treated all I have come into contact with the same way I wish to be treated. I can still look at myself in the mirror and say I like what I see. Can’t say I like the gray hair or wrinkles, or the changes in my body. Nowadays I look at how many years I have ahead of me and wonder if I can fit all I still want to do into my life before I die.

So you folks can either take what I say for face value or try and rip it apart in order to justify your own thoughts and agenda. Maybe I am wrong and if so I apologize. It would be nice to have a good discussion and I will try to understand where you are coming from. I would ask the same of you. I don’t and never have over the years put the other fellow down, I have tried to understand him because we are all humans with the same thoughts, desires, yearnings for a better life and wanting to be accepted. But shucks I can also fade away into the night.
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