BANG !

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Pro Bono

Re: BANG !

Postby Pro Bono » 2007 Dec 13 00:27

To all contributors of BANG . Lets all go sleep ( camp) on the Supreme Court steps in March and get front row seats in the courtroom. Then we can all get our opinions heard . Legally it is allowed as a "Friend of The Court". The worst we will be ejected or spend the night in the same jail cell ( contempt) and argue this until we have no speech left. Or, I can get us on the Docket with about 50k. See Supreme Court website, look under docket in March and you can see the docket date and the "list" of complainants' Attys. You may need a Blacks legal dictionary as the motions have mucho Latin in them. You will be surprised that the Defendants ( D.C.) are way out gunned by complainants' Attys. We can meet up on this date maybe even have some quality time in jail ( just overnight) and get to know each other. Please accept my sense of humor. Pro

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fangz1956
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Re: BANG !

Postby fangz1956 » 2007 Dec 13 07:36

After I asked for your clarification, I took off and did some further reading on this issue. I spent some time reading what the Second Amendment says and the history behind it. I also read some the pro and con scholarly debates on this issue. I can't say that I agree with everything I found but I did educate myself a little further nonetheless.

The fact that your post opened the door to new questions is not necessarily a bad thing. I do believe Albert Einstein said that the most important thing was to never stop questioning. Raising new questions means I have opened myself to new information and new ways of looking at an issue. While it doesn't necessarily mean I will change my mind, it does mean that I am open to respecting an opposing point of view.

At this point in time, I still stand on the right of individual, responsible gun ownership. Nope.....I am not a card carrying member of NRA. I do believe that this issue has the potential to end up just like the War on Drugs which we all know is a joke. Banning and making illegal the possession of personal gun ownership to responsible citizens will open the door to a massive of influx of illegal weapons just like the massive influx of illegal drugs we currently have. Sorry but the bottom line reason that problem exists comes down to the dollars lining somebody's pocket........and I'm not speaking of the pockets of the run of the mill dealers.

:tongue3:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

Lis73

Re: BANG !

Postby Lis73 » 2007 Dec 13 19:38

If I did own one it would have to be one of those pretty little lady pistols with the pearl handle...yeah-that would be my type....to match my French manicure lol
Last edited by Lis73 on 2008 Jan 20 04:07, edited 1 time in total.

Anonymoose

Re: BANG !

Postby Anonymoose » 2007 Dec 13 20:17

What a great debate. I agree in part with all recent posters. Statistically, I think it can be shown that by the sheer numbers of people in this country owning guns, we have more fatalities, and most are of family members, "friends", or "acquaintances" - of whatever sort. But, I see the potential value in owning a gun for personal protection. I, too, was not raised with guns in the house. But, I have shot many, from M-60 to Glock. Both were unwieldy. (spelling?)

This debate has raised questions, but, like Fangz, I think that's a good thing. For personal reasons, I've debated whether or not to obtain one. But, I do come back to thinking I might more likely hurt someone I love, or, leave it stored, then not be able to use it properly when needed. And, like Fangz, am concerned who would be able to get one if you ever went to a shrink, or family doctor, for stress-related illness.

But, I also think that between law enforcement officers, if properly trained, and mental health professionals, they should be able to more accurately discern when someone is a real threat and danger to self and others (Cho). So, I still think that we should make it easier for law and mental health to put up barriers to those capable of doing great harm. There are usually plenty of red flags. And, in certain high crime areas, it's even more difficult, because we tend to want to limit guns, to keep out of the hands of criminals, but, innocent people may have even greater need in those areas to protect themselves. What about gun education in schools? Like sex ed. Meant to educate and enlighten, not to endorse? I know, too idealistic to even think about. Just brainstorming. Why don't we dump 'em, people, to the bottom of the sea, before some ol' fool come around here, want to shoot either you, or me?

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Juggler
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Re: BANG !

Postby Juggler » 2007 Dec 13 20:51

Pro Bono wrote:Lets all go sleep (camp) on the Supreme Court steps in March and get front row seats in the courtroom. Then we can all get our opinions heard... The worst we will be ejected or spend the night in the same jail cell ( contempt) and argue this until we have no speech left... We can meet up on this date maybe even have some quality time in jail ( just overnight) and get to know each other.

I'm up for your most excellent proposal. I'm packing my bags, even as I type, and look forward to an event that will make the '69 Woodstockers envious. To confuse the Supremes, I suggest we file amicus curiae briefs on opposite sides of the question, in numbers that exactly cancel each other, pro and con.

:smile3: Let 'em earn their overblown salaries as they go a'spinnin' over contradictions. :smile3:

Pro Bono

Re: BANG !

Postby Pro Bono » 2007 Dec 13 23:40

First to Liz, Yes, I did live in Miami too long. I left my beloved U.S.M.C. in 1971 and was attending U.of M. ( we call it buying your degree there). Funny thing 6 months home from Nam ( and it wasn't a war protester) in my 68 Chevy Implala I got firebombed in Miami at a stop light . Started carrying a gun then. Miami was a cool city then relatively safe until Carter opened up thre Mariel Boat lift. Castro ( brilliant man) emptied his Insane asylums and prisons along of course with your regular run of the mill Cuban immigrates, seeking family and freedom.It was my B-Day and I had to get checked by Immigration on US-1, the only road out of the Keys.

Cool thing was I was hammered ( not driving) and had my passport in my mouth as we drove thru the check point. Immigration agents laughed their asses off. I was my B-Day .But everyone was carrying a gun then after that influx, I lived in Kingston Jamaica for 5 years, Beleze City for 3 years and Grestones Ireland about 2 years ( real safe there , a few IRA flare ups, but guns are illegal in Ireland also) Oh, Kingston at last count was 7th most dangerous city in the world, and possession of a gun or bullet is life in prison.But a lot of shooting in Kingston Jam. and not by cops. Did I have a need to feel safe and own a weapon ? Yep bet on that. In Kingston I owned a spear gun .White Anglo population is 2%. Little different being the minority.

Cocaine came into Miami like there were no rules or laws against it in the mid 70s too early 80s.But took my wife and two boys and headed out to Rupert W.V..So you were right about Miami. pretty much on course. Anonymoose, you are pretty much on course some type of training and knowledge of firearms before walking out of Wall Mart with one. And Juggler, I got my sleeping bad and yuppie Ipod, to drown out some of you at our camp out.

I must thank The Wise One for bringing up this topic. It sat dormant for about a week until I returned from Central America and no one wanted to scrap with the Wise One on this subject.I'm now looking for a large piece of property near Liberty VA. ( no people to rob me) to write my book and polish my guns. Hope all of you buy my Book tittled " No Regrets" And thank all of you for your input research and opinions. PAX, PRO

Pro Bono

Re: BANG !

Postby Pro Bono » 2007 Dec 13 23:47

Anonymoose, You shot a M-60 ? I hung out of a Helo UH-1 ( slick) for two years with one. Only weapon issued with asbestos gloves for barrell melt down and changes after about 1000 rounds full bore. Semper Fi Girl !!!!

Anonymoose

Re: BANG !

Postby Anonymoose » 2007 Dec 14 08:08

Wow, talk about rattling your brains, and everything else. You are a hero. I can't wait to read your book. No, not USMC. Even at 18, I wasn't made of that stuff! Army, basic training, gives you just enough to get a "feel" for it - right. No comparison to your experience. But, guns are to me, like white water. You have to respect the power, or it'll take you down. Still wrestling with the gun subject. I just checked out Ron Paul's web site on Fangz recommendation. He makes much sense on many issues. Then I saw "Texas" and "Republican", and got a bit sweaty. I fear if elected he might arrive with a Dick Cheney or Rumsfeld in tow - Nazis both, in my opinion. But, I agree with him that our borders should be first priority, not everyone else's. Interesting times.

Pro, bet you wish you still had that 68 Chevy Impala! Or, maybe you do! Despite it all, life is good, especially in a muscle car!

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fangz1956
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Re: BANG !

Postby fangz1956 » 2007 Dec 14 08:18

I got a little sweaty with fact that Dr. Paul is a Texas Republican, too.........until I heard the man speak. He is a breath of fresh air and is beyond sound bytes and "wrap yourself in the flag" BS. My Daddy is probably rolling over in his grave knowing that I am even considering casting my vote for a Republican. But then again, I have to vote my conscience and this man makes so much sense.......something that the rest of the Capitol Hill gang seems to be lacking.

:tongue3:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

Anonymoose

Re: BANG !

Postby Anonymoose » 2007 Dec 14 10:14

Funny, Fangz! My mom's probably dancing in her grave thinking I might even consider a Republican! Odd how things work out. She and my Dad were staunch Republicans, but the rest of her family was of the Democrat persuasion. They used to play great pranks on each other, back when you could still talk opposite sides of the two-party system in good humor. Those were the days.

I've been thinking deeper on the gun subject and presidential candidates. If a candidate came out in support of seriously improving our mental health "system", and fighting crime decisively, I would probably pay real close attention. Seems to me the 2nd amendment would require less debate if we started at the source, and gave better care to the mentally ill, and provided some real deterrents to crime, whatever they may be. Then the demand for illegal weapons might be reduced, and innocent people could shed some of their fear of being victimized. In a perfect world, I know. But, when we did away with insane asylums, we basically put the mentally ill on the streets, where they became criminals, and a bigger burden on taxpayers and society.

Lis73

Re: BANG !

Postby Lis73 » 2007 Dec 14 14:49

I think one of the biggest issues with guns are the kids who just decide to take a whole group of people out because one person upset them...be it a school bully and then you have a Columbine on your hands...or a religious nut who gets kicked out of a missionary group and then you have our recent Colorado shooting on your hands...or the kid who is playing around with his dad's gun and accidentally takes off his little brother's head. Guns are okay if used with safety and respect. They are needed by people to feel safe in places that just are not safe to live. BUT kids and unstable adults are getting their hands on them, and wreaking havoc because they do not know how to control their hurt. Let's face it....maybe there should be some sort of really extensive mental background check required. A look into the mental health of the VT shooter last year would have saved so many lives.
Last edited by Lis73 on 2008 Jan 20 04:13, edited 1 time in total.

Pro Bono

Re: BANG !

Postby Pro Bono » 2007 Dec 14 18:11

My Dearest Lis, My apologies for misspelling your name (a little picky, but it offended you) You referred to me as Milo now that didn't offend me. I'm assuming that S. Charles Volpe must have given up my first name to you. My name is Miles (Greek or Latin meaning distance, warrior or a body oil the Greeks used prior to battle) You must know Chuck well, for him to give you my name. Funny we had a 1 hour phone call this morning. But there is one other name that only Chuck, my brother and Mother can call me. You wont get that one out of him. It's a family thing.

And yes about 6 months ago I bought my first pair of glasses ( Oh, I'm 2 years older than Chuck) the sure helped. Gracefully aging but still a gentleman, and a romantic at heart. Actually, I was taught Phonics by Dominican Nuns. So in general my spelling isn't that great at all times. I thank Bill Gates for spell check. But with phonetics Liz and Lis are pretty close for phonically similar names. There are times I can't read my own notes from court after writing really, really fast. So I use a recorder. But I'm actually flattered that you would remember just my name in general.

So, I guess this calls a for a phone call to S. C. V. for who is Lis73. ? Actually we have already discussed you but not by name. I think we may have met at Charles Memorial service or at CV's house post service. The rumor about me being a nice guy is just a rumor. I treat people regardless of race, wealth, religion, financial status the same way I would like to be treated. Today, I had my newly divorced neighbor ask me about buying a gun today. I told her I would help her pick one out. BUT that she must bring her gun and two teenage children to my range. So that all 3 of them would have a 3 hour class on how to shoot, sight, clean, handle, carry their family home defense weapon. Or, I was out of the deal. She agreed whole heartedly and thought it was a great practice and would fell much more secure at home, with all family members proficient with their weapon.

Well, again I'm sorry about my spelling it wasn't meant to be malicious in any way. But now you know my real name. And it isn't Pro. But sure do like those eyes on your Avatar LIZ. Regards, Miles III the Pro Bono

Pro Bono

Re: BANG !

Postby Pro Bono » 2007 Dec 14 22:20

Dear Anonymoose, First I'm flatttered that you you would refer to me as a hero,for doing two tours in Nam and mastering the art of hanging out the door of a UH-1 ( slick) with a Colt 60 cal. .But no, I'm not a hero not by any means shape or form. I was a 18 year old teenager who became a man really fast.I still had pimples on my face and would puke after a bloody rock and roll day, doing inserts and extracts of other teenagers like myself into a hot landing zone.And my Helo looked like Swiss Cheese at the end of the day. But I was a Marine, that is what I had become, at that young confusing age of 18. Yea, I cried alone at night by myself, we all did.But their was the look in those peoples faces that helped my blues,fear and homesickness.Maybe it was those little kids running up and hugging your thigh or the old ladys who offered you a bowl of rice and said thank you when you were in their village. Maybe no,not maybe thats why I raised my hand and said I will stay here one more tour.My second tour I was asigned to a Col. in the 82 Airborne, we were assigned to intel ( Cambodia).I was smoking pot and the Col was drinking Bourbon back then to ease our emotional pain . Finally I got fragged in my left knee,almost lost that leg from infection. The Col gave me a Bronze and a Purple and off I went to home. To start my life over again.I was proud to be a member of the U.S.M.C. and always will be.But for two years, I helped some people that wanted help.Being there and reading and watching T.V, are just as far removed from each other as one can get. Sounds as is you were in the Army. I'm proud of you also as you took the time to step up and put in your time for your country and our people and way of life we enjoy .I have broken a rule now, as this is the most I have ever written about that two year period of combat in my life. But you were a soldier also and patriot. Your one of the many unsung heros that we have in our country.Thank you for your service to our country. Whooo Raahh ! Pro

Anonymoose

Re: BANG !

Postby Anonymoose » 2007 Dec 14 23:17

Pro, too late in the evening to write much, but thank you for your kind words. I have recently wondered, did my small part make a difference. And, today, I thought maybe so. I believe, even if a battle or war is not "won" per se, there is still good that comes from it, as your last post so well expresses. But, like I said, late and not much mental energy left. And', I was somewhat taken aback at model, NY, z v. s, etc's post. What the heck? I visited NYC for the first time on my 16th birthday. "Country come to town". And, I held my head up and looked people in the eye. And, finally learned why they looked at me so funny. But, I found it a form of flattery. To hell with 'em if they can't look someone in the eye without suspicion. Says more about them that me, I say. Say it loud... I may not be "from here", but I'm proud! :)

Lis73

Re: BANG !

Postby Lis73 » 2007 Dec 15 11:27

Have you ever heard a glock click like a camera? Cock the hammer lol
Last edited by Lis73 on 2008 Jan 20 04:18, edited 1 time in total.

Pro Bono

Re: BANG !

Postby Pro Bono » 2007 Dec 15 21:35

Lis, I just felt a chill in the air. Can't find my sweater either. Mr Rodgers must have taken it, when he left us. Ah' there is my cane. Now, if I can get this 8 track to play "Mutiney On Sail Boat Bay" Graham Nash 1976. Then we can all be on the same page.Then we can discuss the 2nd amendment and I won't be muttering the 5th.Figure out the riddle, Graham did. III

Anonymoose

Re: BANG !

Postby Anonymoose » 2007 Dec 15 23:25

Actually, Lis, not meaning to slam you and your NYC experience, just reflecting (to strangers, no less) on my own experience and different reactions, and how I later became enlightened about them. And, definitely not underestimating the danger for anyone alone in a big city. I just personally found the experience interesting, despite the potential dangers. Actually, it was comedic, but that's another story.

And, no, I'm not male, despite the "moose" moniker! The experience showed me much about "appearance", and how it opens and closes doors for people. It was funny, being ushered to the rear area of The Four Seasons, because, although we were dressed nicely, we were not in black and diamonds, and so, not eligible for tables in the "glamour" section. But, it was fine, because I was able to observe, and sit with the "earthier" crowd, and enjoy the experience from a real-folk perspective.

Anyway, yes, big drug and crime infested cities are intimidating, and, it just struck me that keeping your head up is a better way to know what's going on around you. New Yorkers are apparently conditioned to not look at other people on the street. For what are good reasons, I'm sure. But, that would bore me. I was too busy watching the people to look up at the skyscrapers. I guess we just both missed each other's points, if there were any! Sorry. You are obviously very worldly, and familiar with Pro with whom you share common acquaintances and experiences. I should have recognized that, and withheld comment accordingly.

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fangz1956
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Re: BANG !

Postby fangz1956 » 2007 Dec 20 01:22

Congress OKs Va Tech-inspired gun bill By LAURIE KELLMAN, Associated Press Writer
33 minutes ago



Congress on Wednesday passed a long-stalled bill inspired by the Virginia Tech shootings that would more easily flag prospective gun buyers who have documented mental health problems. The measure also would help states with the cost.

Passage by voice votes in the House and Senate came after months of negotiations between Senate Democrats and the lone Republican, Sen. Tom Coburn of Oklahoma, who had objected and delayed passage.

It was not immediately clear whether President Bush intended to sign, veto or ignore the bill. If Congress does not technically go out of session, as Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., has threatened, the bill would become law if Bush does not act within 10 days.

"This bill will make America safer without affecting the rights of a single law-abiding citizen," said the Senate's chief sponsor, New York Democrat Chuck Schumer.

One of the House's chief sponsors, Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, spoke in the full House about her husband, who was killed by a gunman on the Long Island Railroad in New York. "To me, this is the best Christmas present I could ever receive," said McCarthy, D-N.Y.

Rep. John Dingell, D-Mich., added that the bill will speed up background checks and reinforce the rights of law abiding gun owners.

Propelling the bill were the Virginia Tech shootings on April 16 and rare agreement between political foes, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence and the National Rifle Association.

But other interest groups said that in forging compromise with the gun lobby, the bill's authors unintentionally imposed an unnecessary burden on government agencies by freeing up thousands of people to buy guns.

"Rather than focusing on improving the current laws prohibiting people with certain mental health disabilities from buying guns, the bill is now nothing more than a gun lobby wish list," said Kristen Rand, legislative director of the Violence Policy Center. "It will waste millions of taxpayer dollars restoring the gun privileges of persons previously determined to present a danger to themselves or others."

The measure would clarify what mental health records should be reported to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, which help gun dealers determine whether to sell a firearm to a prospective buyer, and give states financial incentives for compliance. The attorney general could penalize states if they fail to meet compliance targets.

Despite the combined superpowers of bill's supporters, Coburn held it up for months because he worried that millions of dollars in new spending would not be paid for by cuts in other programs.

His chief concern, he said, was that it did not pay for successful appeals by veterans or other people who say they are wrongly barred from buying a gun.

Just before midnight Tuesday, Coburn and the Democratic supporters of the bill struck a deal: The government would pay for the cost of appeals by gun owners and prospective buyers who argue successfully in court that they were wrongly deemed unqualified for mental health reasons.

The compromise would require that incorrect records — such as expunged mental health rulings that once disqualified a prospective gun buyer but no longer do — be removed from system within 30 days.

The original bill would require any agency, such as the Veterans Administration or the Defense Department, to notify a person flagged as mentally ill and disqualified from buying or possessing a gun. The new version now also would require the notification when someone has been cleared of that restriction.

The bill would authorize up to $250 million a year over five years for the states and as much as $125 million a year over the same period for state courts to help defray the cost of enacting the policy.

Propelling the long-sought legislation were the April 16 killings at Virginia Tech. Student Seung-Hui Cho killed 32 students and himself using two guns he had bought despite his documented history of mental illness.

Cho had been ruled a danger to himself during a court commitment hearing in 2005. He had been ordered to have outpatient mental health treatment and should have been barred from buying the two guns he used. But Virginia never forwarded the information to the national background check system.




Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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fangz1956
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Re: BANG !

Postby fangz1956 » 2007 Dec 21 01:37

WOW!! Reading the actual bill made my head spin......and I am not entirely sure I am thrilled with what I have read thus far.

http://www.gunlaws.com/HR2640.htm


I don't think we're in Kansas anymore, Toto.

:hmm:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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fangz1956
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Re: BANG !

Postby fangz1956 » 2007 Dec 26 12:24

I write as concerned citizen and constituent. I am greatly disheartened as I watch the systematic dismantling of the Constitution and the disappearance of Liberty. The recent legislation regarding the release of mental health records as part of background checks for gun purchases concerns me greatly. In theory, it is important that weapons are kept out of the hands of gravely mentally ill persons. Where does the line get drawn and who gets to draw it? There are a vast number of reasons for people to seek professional counseling and the large number of those reasons would not and do not mean the person is incapable od rational thinking and sound judgement. After reading the bill in its entirity, I came away with the sinking feeling that this Congress and this Administration have managed to successfully put into place a law that has the power to disarm the American people and strip them of their Second Amendment rights. No, I am not a member of the NRA or any other pro-gun group. I do not even own a gun myself. I will, however defend the right of resposnible citizens to keep and bear arms.
This Congress has managed to fail this country as it has turned a deaf ear to the voice of the American people. It appears as though the the over-riding concern among the power elite in Washington is personal monetary profit in vast sums for themselves and their friends and families. This Congress has done nothing but sit back and condone and promote the disappearnace of civil liberty for ALL Americans. And you all have the unmitigated gall to call it security from attack and necessary in the joke known as the War on Terror.
Does Congress really believe that the American people are stupid, illiterate, and uninformed?
Each of you swore an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution when you took office. This Congress and this Administration have done nothing toward that oath. They have managed to do the exact opposite. The framers of that document must be rolling over in their graves. What is happening here is NOT what was intended by the framers of that document. It appears as if we are being taxed without representation, spied on without our knowledge or consent, and having our property seized for the "good of the government". That is just plain wrong.
What happened to government by, of, and for the people? It disappeared in favor of special interest groups, corrupt lobbyists, the weapons manufacturers that keep the war machine running, and the rest of the war profiteers (some of whom sit in this very Congress and Administration).
The question I am asking is this: When are you all, as elected representatives of the people, going start upholding your oath to protect and defend the Constitution? We are wating.

Sincerely,




This is the letter I wrote to my Senator today. I did quite a bit of reading over the holiday and I am so very tired of not being heard. I ran across a bumper sticker last night that said: ANNOY A POLITICIAN: DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION.
I guess that is the match that lit the fire today. :2cent:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?