The trashing off Lee and Jackson

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Coondog
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According to.......

Postby Coondog » 2017 Aug 23 16:13

....... some of MSNBC's talking loudmouths, General Lee was a traitor who tried to take down the government of the United States. Poppycock!
Lee, along with most of his southern gentleman army, fought to keep the army of invading carpetbaggers out of the Old Dominion and friends. Did a mighty good job of it for a while.

Who should we erect monuments to? General Hunter who shelled Lexington and bravely burned the homes of little old ladies? U.S. Grant? Nobody even knows or cares who is buried in Grant's tomb!

Sure, Lee lost his war, but so did America in Vietnam, yet we put up monuments to celebrate the efforts and sacrifices of Americans in a losing effort. The Confederate States of America were still Americans who cared nothing about wrecking the government of the United States. They just wanted the same kind of "treasonous" freedom as did George Washington and Patrick Henry to do things their way.

We can disagree, distort and demonize their motives, today, but monuments reflect the times & feelings of the people who erected them. History! Heritage! Call it what you want.

If we have to take down the statues, can we send the carpetbaggers back where they came from? They can keep West Virginia.

Coondog

"I wave my underwear at you, Sir!" :surrend: - General Beauregard D. Coondog; Battle of Beagle Bulge 1863

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Wise One
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Wise One » 2017 Aug 24 12:22

"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Aug 25 18:38

wise one,

People like you who are filled with so much hate with so little cause must lead miserable lives.

Most people who display the "Confederate Battle Flag" are much like me. They are not racist, they are only honoring the memory of brave people who put up a fight when their homes had been invaded by some very bad and or misguided people.

Like you many people who claim to be offended by the flag have very little knowledge of the war or it's beginning and most do not know that five of the Yankee States were Slave States and provided units to the Federal army.

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Wise One
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Wise One » 2017 Aug 28 09:42

"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Aug 30 03:09

wise one, As you say history is well documented so why do you have it so wrong?
It really was "The War of Northern Aggression"
Even though the Lincoln administration was informed by the Confederate Government that the fort would only be fired on if ships were sent to resupply or reinforce the fort. Lincoln promptly sent a fleet to the mouth of Charleston harbor and sent in a decoy ship knowing that would start a battle with the Confederate guns firing first. Not one person was killed on either side during the battle. But it gave the Lincoln administration a reason to invade the Confederate States which is what they did. After four years of destroying the Southern States and making war on civilians the Federal Government continued to make war on the southern people for ten more years during a period of time called "Reconstruction"

And today people like you and ANTIFA and a group of liberals who are overcome with hate are trying to rewrite history and destroy all trace of the brave folks who resisted that Northern Aggression.

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Coondog
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First of all........

Postby Coondog » 2017 Sep 02 17:02

........I am taking this opportunity to announce that I will no longer be referring to myself in the third person. Having observed our President over the past months, and the apparent dementia exhibited thereby, from now on, it's just "me".

So, having made that monumental leap, I'd like to pursue the issue at hand by stating that I do realize that my position on firearms and the Confederacy does deviate from that of my fellow flaming liberals and from purists of the progressive bent such as the Wise One. When I find myself of like mind with Cannoneer on an issue, it does not mean I've abandoned my generally leftist principles. It means I'm not towing anybody's line but my own and at my ripe old age, I'm weary of hollow causes and complaints that don't mean squat. That goes for fundamentalists and fanatics of all ilk.


the Great Jimmy Carter brokered a peace deal between Egypt and the Hebrews that remains in place today. Yet, we don't hear Jews barking about tearing down pyramids because it reminds them of slavery. No! Because they know what parts of ancient history are relevant today and which ones aren't. And they're in the Middle East for crying out loud. Surely we can be at least that sensible.

Would that our colored cousins rid themselves of the chip on their shoulders over slavery and stick to more contemporary issues, of which there are plenty. Would that conservatives climb down off their high horses and drop the moralistic demonization of everyone who ain't them. It's feigned and only causes a lot of trouble.

So, let's all get together and start hating the North Koreans. Those poor bastards have suffered enough and deserve to die. That's America!

Coondog :beer:

Thank you Falettinme be mice elf again

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Wise One
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Wise One » 2017 Sep 02 22:16

Well argued ... I love when a good case is presented, even if I don't quite agree on all the fine details. They are, after all, just details and agreement on the big general principles is pretty good.

But you are wrong. You have not shifted from third person to first person narrative. You have shifted from third dog to first dog.

The first dog has a great view and doesn't have to look at all those assholes.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Sep 05 09:41

For a moment let's consider what would have happened to slavery if the north had never invaded the South.

The 13 amendment had already been written and signed by Lincoln so on Jan. 1, 1866 all the slaves in the nine northern slave states would have been set free. No different from what did happened on that date. That would have included Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Arkansas. States that only left the Union over Lincoln's Aggression.
The Battle Flag would would not exist.
Lee and Jackson would never have had to take up arms to repel an invader and there would be no statues of them.
Growing the same crops every year was depleting the soil and the land was producing less each year. .
The house and stable slaves were pure overhead.
Industrial advances were replacing the need for manpower with machines
Slavery would have ended on its own without the loss of half a million Americans and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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Wise One
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Wise One » 2017 Sep 05 14:17

Odd logic.

The 13th Amendment was finally in place for only 3 months before the end of the Civil War. Nobody of substance believes it would have been proposed, passed by both houses of Congress, and ratified by the requisite number of states had not the Civil War occurred. Slavery would have persisted indefinitely.

On your rationale, six million people would not have died in German death camps if we and our allies had stood aside and not fought WWII. Ridiculous.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Sep 05 17:59

wise,
Your statement about WWII is ridiculous.

What people of substance would those be?

Lincoln was an abolitionist, The Republicans were all abolitionist. They wanted an end to slavery and the 13th amendment would certainly been passed without the seven Gulf States being involved.

Lincoln started the war to force the seceding states back into the Union. The issue of slavery came into play after the battle of Sharpsburg.

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Kevsky
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Re: An endless present

Postby Kevsky » 2017 Sep 10 19:55


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Neck-aint-red
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2017 Sep 11 12:31

An exhaustive (and exhausting) posting.

Scurrilous and pointless. It .

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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Sep 12 02:11

As usual neck you put something in the wrong place. Your "boils down to this" has nothing to do with the subject at hand.In fact

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Wise One
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Wise One » 2017 Sep 12 11:59

Here's an excellent compilation of source material from the American Historical Association on


There's a lot here, covering a large range and presented by professionals in the field.

Just one note: I re-read the . Anybody who maintains the war and the Confederacy were not about slavery is, simply, nuts. I love the parts reaffirming the 3/5 count of dark-skinned people, the carving in stone of people as mere property, and a ban on importation of slaves from outside the Confederacy.

Lest you conclude this latter indicates a tinge of humanity, it was not that at all. Slave-owners feared that the importation of new slaves from outside the confederacy would depress the market value of their "property." It was all about exploitation of people in already bondage for as much money as they could extract.

Similar to the case today, the slaveholding 1% conned a stupid and compliant 99% into fighting and dying to preserve immoral profits for the 1%.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Sep 12 19:41

wise,

Have you and neck been eating the same stupid pills?

What does your post have to do with tearing down the statues of brave men who answered the call to defend their home State from an invading army?

The Confederate Constitution had nothing with starting the war.

The Lincoln Administration started the war and invaded The Southern States to force them back into the Union. Ending slavery was not mentioned for nearly a year and a half.

Old Abe called for 100,000 volunteers to preserve the Union.

Certainly you know all this because you claim to be well versed on history.

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Coondog
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Let it be

Postby Coondog » 2017 Sep 16 15:23

Let us not lose sight of the topic at hand. We need to remember that these statues represent an historical perspective of a substantial number of citizens of the country. Whether they were erected in 1864 or 1940 or yesterday, they are symbolic of another time and should be recognized as such. Clearly, there remain a number of people who still hold a measure of reverence for them, and not just usurpers of symbols like the KKK, Nazis and other right wing fanatics; categories with which neither I nor cannoneer can justifiably be associated.

The flaggers, who I adamantly disagree with over their Boycott Lexington nonsense, have admirably set an example and stayed out of the issue. Everybody else should too. The removal of statues has only served to stir up animosity that need not exist.

As I have intoned, leave the damned statues where they are, stop using them to express feigned outrage and, if one must, go pick some other unimportant issue to be offended over.

Coondog

Just a howling wonder of nature........

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Kevsky
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Kevsky » 2017 Sep 17 07:57


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Wise One
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Wise One » 2017 Sep 22 07:58

The Robert E. Lee Memorial Episcopal Church has changed its name back to its historic and original Grace Episcopal Church.

I had no dog in this fight and am happy with private parties doing what they like on their property, honoring or dishonoring those who fought for slavery and insurrectionist symbols.

Public property is another matter.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Sep 22 08:56

Since you are a virginian you should know the history of your own state which apparently you either do not, or are too biased to believe it.
Virginia only left the Union when ordered to participate in forcing The seven Confederate States back into the Union at bayonet point. It was not over slavery.
Even If you can't understand article one only giving a portion of the states sovereignty to the Federal Government, you should know that in its ratification of the constitution Virginia reserved the right to leave the Union.
I think you are so hung up on your own predigest feelings that you just can't see the truth.
If any statues should be taken down it should be those of the real criminals of the war between the states and the reconstruction. Like Lincoln, Grant, Sheridan and Sherman.

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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2017 Oct 10 00:02

John Oliver on "."


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