The trashing off Lee and Jackson

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Cannoneer
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The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Aug 15 12:03

I'm both angry and upset over the latest developments in the tearing down of all things Confederate.
My main gripe is against the people holding rallies to keep the monuments and the flag.
Even though I do not want to see the flag banned or the statues torn down I am certainly against those dishonor the memory of those brave and honorable men the statues represent.
These are the same people who took an honorable banner that brave men followed into battle and turned it into a raciest symbol by waveing it around at their hate filled rallies and KKK meetings.
I'd like to see decent people turn on those people and leave the statues and the flag alone.
Even though slavery was a major issue with the first seven states that left the union that was not the case for Virginia or North carolina, Tennessee or Arkansas.

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Wise One
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Wise One » 2017 Aug 15 16:34

I admire words of restraint in your posting.

My quibble is with a revisionist view of "the flag."

It was not converted into a racist symbol by latter day Nazis, KKK members, and white supremacists. It was ALWAYS a symbol of racism.

Virginia was as much a part of the determined bunch of states wanting to hold onto slaves at any cost as the others. Here's proof, the Ordinance Repealing Virginia's Ratification of the Constituion. The key to it all was insistence on maintaining "slaveholding states."

A few wealthy planters owned slaves, exploited them, and did what the top 1% always do. With "patriotic" propaganda they persuaded thousands of poor dumb whites to go fight a battle for them so they could keep their slaves. The hapless fighters didn't realize that the main economic effect on poor whites was to depress their own wages below those that would have been set by a free labor market.

Statues? I have no problem with keeping statues, but I have a problem with putting them in places of honor in public places. These were rebels who tried to destroy our Constitutional form of government, and to enslave human beings.

You won't find statues in Germany honoring Hitler and the leaders and Generals of the Third Reich. You will find Holocaust Museums that preserve some of the horror lest we be tempted down that road again. In Hungary you will find no Soviet era statues in places of honor in the public squares, but they are in museums as a reminder that we do do not not want to go down that road again.

Statues of St. Bob and Stonewall? Yes, keep them. In museums that tell the whole story, not in positions of honor in towns' main squares with no explanation.

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Last edited by Wise One on 2017 Aug 16 14:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Aug 15 23:27

It's true the slave holding states are mentioned in Virginia's ordinance of secession due to the fact that
virginia was called on to raise troops to go into those states and force them back into the union. Virginia's reason to leave the Union.

The south was invaded by the United States as Lincoln put it, "To preserve the Union."
The war only became a fight to free the slaves after the battle of Sharpsburg.

Some of your posts make me believe you grew up in Rockbridge County. Was your family here during the war or did they come later?

You certainly have a twisted understanding of history.

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Wise One
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Wise One » 2017 Aug 16 10:47

I have a pretty good grasp of history and, ironically, was born in Stonewall Jackson's home. It was the town hospital at the time, and is now a museum.

I'm familiar with both history, and its revisionist versions that are so popular among the Alt-Right, Nazi, KKK, white supremacy movement.

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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Aug 16 12:33

I beg to differ about your so called knowledge of history.
If any people involved in the war for Southern independence could be called nazis we could start with Lincoln and an admiral who's name escapes me at the moment. They orchestrated the battle of fort sumter with a plan to get the Confederates to fire first. It worked. Next we have Sheridan, Sherman and Grant and a Russian born Yankee general who made war on civilians with Lincoln's full approval. Then we have the commander of the POW camp in Chicago who starved and tortured prisoners just to name a few.

Were your ancestors carpet baggers?????????

Mine were Rockbridge County residents who believed in The right of a State to leave the union based on Article one of the constitution which only gave the federal government a small part off their sovereignty. And all of the males in the family joined the Confederate army in order to repel the invasion that they knew was coming from an unjust Federal Government.


You really don't have a grasp of this subject at all.

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Wise One
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Wise One » 2017 Aug 16 13:23

I see nothing in Article 1 that does what you say. That article establishes Congress and defines its powers. The powers of the other two branches are defined in other Articles, and revisions to the original text are covered in Amendments.

I don't think anything in the Constitution gives states license to leave the United States. And neither did President Lincoln.

PS. I presume my ancestors did many foolish things. I do not consider myself bound by tradition to continue their errors.

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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Aug 16 13:42

You don't see anything that you don't want to see.

What about all those Yankee nazis and their human rights violations?????

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Neck-aint-red
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2017 Aug 16 14:17

This is an excellent explanation of how the facts of history got revised by latter-day racists.

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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Aug 16 18:47

Well neck, nothing that I wrote was either racist or false. You are just showing your ignorance.
You should read before you write.

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Juggler
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Juggler » 2017 Aug 19 09:57

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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Aug 19 12:31

If general's Lee and Jackson had been fighting to keep slavery I would agree with you.
Lee, Jackson and my great grandfather understood article one on the constitution did not give the states sovereignty the federal government.
Only enough of it for the federal government to function.
So they felt the first seven states that left the union had a right to go.
You libs certainly do love to twist history so it fits your idea of how you think it was or how it makes you feel good.

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Coondog
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Sooner or later........

Postby Coondog » 2017 Aug 19 16:58

.....it had to happen. About an hour ago, some history guru mentioned on MSNBC that in Lexington, Virginia there's a cemetery named after Stonewall Jackson....and not in a good way. WTF? Lexington has more claim on Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson than most places. After all, they lived here and they liked it so much, they're still here.

Coondog was also born in Stonewall Jackson's home. It is remembered shortly thereafter for being the Library and later as a museum....one of the places young pups could romp around in in the 1950's. Ancestral letters are on file with the Hysterical Society donated by mama Coondog from distant cousins who served in the southern ranks. No mention there of preserving slavery. Coondog's grandmother was a Daughter of the Confederacy and worked tirelessly in the kitchen of the Presbyterian Church (where Stonewall Jackson used to go to pray). She didn't own any slaves, either.

This hubbub over statues is a dangerous precedent. We've already seen what a few transient students can stir up by insisting that everything they see of confederate history offends them deeply as it reminds them of suffering they never experienced by people long dead. Lexington City Council has previously shown itself to be spineless when it came to display of a few flags one day a year to celebrate Lee-Jackson Day by a few folks who still have romantic feelings about the past. City Council lacked the ability to appreciate that Lexington is inextricably linked to the Civil War and specifically, the South.

Let us not forget that after the War of Northern Aggression, (it was, you know) it was Robert E. Lee who rescued Washington's namesake college from ruin and brought a booming tourism industry to what was once a roadside curiosity named Campbell's Ford for over 100 years. The liberal inheritors of this economic advantage have chosen to bury it under the rising tide of political correctness and pandering that has sparked the current conflict.

We should be clamoring to get that statue from Charlottesville and blocking off parking in front of the Robert E. Lee Hotel to put it up. If we can do it for Tom Bradshaw's Clock, we can do it for Robert E. Lee, an honorable man who is being mischaracterized and maligned nationally to facilitate this St. Vitis dance of historical cleansing.

Nothing racist here! Everybody knows that Coondog is a flaming liberal. And proud of it most of the time. But, we have a legitimate right to this stuff and some of us are tired of hearing people who were born 100 years too late to participate sniveling about being reminded by a metal man on a horse of pain the never suffered and of slavery they never experienced.

Best we lay low. They're already taking notice of us.

Coondog :tiphat:

The South may not rise again, but Coondog has

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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Aug 19 22:13

Excellent post Coondog.
I've just finished reading a very informative book about Stonewall Jackson titled Rebel Yell.
He was a good man and a great general who died fighting in Virginia's second war of independance.

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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Aug 20 23:46

I have a few questions for you juggler.
If an army invaded your State and burned homes, barns, crops in the field, looted private property, and made war on civilians in general wouldn't you want to honor those who took up arms in your State's defense to drive the invaders out?????????????
Maybe even put up statues to them and honor the banner they fought under??
And wouldn't it piss you off if someone came along and said the banner and the statues offended them and started tearing them down????
Wouldn't you also get pissed at people who dishonored that banner by waving it around in hatred?????????????
If you answer yes to those questions you know where I'm coming from.
If you answer no to them I know where you're coming from.

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nudgewink
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby nudgewink » 2017 Aug 21 14:27

Regarding the Noble War for The Cause and "Patriotism"
Dr. Steve Newton Professor of History at Delaware State University wrote:Did I mention, coincidentally, that between 275,000-300,000 Confederate soldiers deserted during the war? Funny how those numbers--draftees and deserters--are so close to each other. By January 1864, in fact, close to 15% of the Confederate Army was out hunting deserters (not facing down the damn Yankees), and huge swathes of southwestern Virginia, eastern Tennessee, western North Carolina, northern Alabama, the foothills of Georgia, and central Mississippi were actually under the de facto if not de jure control of anti-Confederate Southerners.

So not a few realized they were fighting a war for a few rich slave owners and there was really nothing of benefit to them by risking their lives. Many poor saps didn't, though, and went to their deaths for a senseless cause.

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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Aug 21 23:27

I see from your final comment that you are as ignorant on the subject as wise one.

The South lost 150,000 soldiers during the war. They fought hungry, ragged, poorly equipped and outnumbered and many didn't have shoes. They still won most of the battles.
I do not believe Dr. Nmewton's figures but considering the conditions The Confederate soldiers lived and fought under I'm sure there were deserters.
The Union also had it's desertions.
I wonder if he did a study on the desertions during the VietNam war or figured how many cowards went to Canada.
General Lee surrendered 8,000 Troops in the condition named above to 500,000 well fed, well equipped and better armed troops under General Grant.
Before his death Robert E. Lee told a friend that if he had known how the South would be treated after the war he would have fought to the last.

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nudgewink
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby nudgewink » 2017 Aug 22 10:17

Cannoneer wrote:Before his death Robert E. Lee told a friend that if he had known how the South would be treated after the war he would have fought to the last.

Interesting. I couldn't find that, so can you give us a reference?

The only regrets I could find were these: deciding to get a military education, and having a military career.

PS. A little more research leads me to believe the allegation is bunk. It's a third-hand quote by a "Great Cause" apologist years after his death, which occurred so soon after the war's end that most of the abuses of Reconstruction had not yet occurred. Here's what I found
Reference wrote:First, Lee never wrote his memoirs. Second, I think what you are talking about here is what he supposedly told Texas Governor Stockdale after the war. The quote in question goes as follows: "Governor, if I had foreseen the use these people designed to make of their victory, there would have been no surrender at Appomattox Courthouse; no sir, not by me. Had I foreseen these results of subjugation, I would have preferred to die at Appomattox with my brave men, my sword in my right hand."

Most modern Lee biographers (including Douglas Southall Freeman) do not accept this as accurate. Freeman says, "There is nothing in Lee's own writings and nothing in direct quotation by first-hand witness that accords with such an expression on his part." (R.E. Lee, vol. IV, p. 374). If you track down this tale, it is at best third-hand, and this IMO diminishes its credibility greatly.

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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Aug 22 11:00

I first read it in volume four of a four volume biography of Robert E. Lee, and a few other places which I will try to locate for you.
Also I'd like to say that my figures about the surrender were written in haste and anger. Lee still had 28,000 men but only 8,000 of them still had arms and the Union troops under Grant were 200,000 not 500,000.
I didn't bother to look this up, but Lee didn't die until 1870. Five years into a ten year cruel military occupation of the south. My grandfather was four years old when Lee died and nine when the occupation finally ended.
Where did you find that Lee had regrets for choosing a military career? He was brilliant at it. Even though he was forty years old before the rest of the army saw it. His military ability to win battles didn't get noticed util the Mexican war. It started at Vera Cruse where he placed the artillery. That was his first time under fire.

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fangz1956
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby fangz1956 » 2017 Aug 23 08:17

I gotta say that I agree with Coondog. I've been sitting on the fence about the issue of monuments and symbols. Sometimes, I think it's kind of hellish to be able to see both sides of the argument and still be stuck in the middle.

I had the opportunity last week to travel to the area east of Richmond ......King William County, to be exact. Hadn't been down that way in quite a long time. All of that time behind the wheel gave me a chance to think about the real history of this place I call home......since there was nobody yammering away about a whole lot of nothing on this journey.I came to the conclusion that we should not destroy our monuments. I get that some people don't want them in the public square...but they do represent a significant piece of Virginia's history. One idea that came to mind is this........we have a number of battlefields in this state. Wouldn't it be fitting to move some of those monuments to those places and use them to educate the public with all of the facts surrounding that era of history? In my mind, that is a better solution than destroying them or putting them somewhere that will lead to their own natural self-destruction. As for Monument Avenue in Richmond....leave the monuments in place but add educational explanations about the significance of these figures (leaving out the worn out phrases like Lost Cause and the Glorious Confederate Dead. In other words, leave the romanticizing to pulp fiction writers.

I grew up here. I learned Virginia history here. However, what I came to learn as an adult was that the history taught in the public schools during my time there was pretty damn whitewashed. This state as well as this nation, need to talk factually about the elephant that has been in the room since the founding of this country. We need to drag all of the skeletons out of the closet and show them the light of day. Oh yes, there will be much weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. But, this is the only way (I think) that this nation, the South, and the Commonwealth of Virginia stand any real chance of actual healing.............healing wounds born of white supremacy, racism, slavery, elitism, sexism, genocide.

I love this place......................warts and all. It is way past time that we stop white-washing our history and fully acknowledge the actual truth of it and how it got us to this place in time. We need to work diligently on programs of education around these issues and their history. Virginia has a grand chance to get this right and be a major player in moving this country forward. We owe that much to our children and grandchildren.


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Cannoneer
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Re: The trashing off Lee and Jackson

Postby Cannoneer » 2017 Aug 23 12:24

Fangz, I also agree with Coondog. His was the best post on this subject.
The problem I see with moving the statues because they offend some unenlightened or biased people is it would brand the people the statues are of as racist. Which they were not. But at this late date so many are claiming they were.
How many people who didn't own slaves or benefit from others owning slaves do you think would have fought for slavery under the conditions that the confederate soldiers were forced to fight under? And they did it until they no longer had the means to fight with.