Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

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Crux
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 08 08:49

Easy. Look at post 911, Afghanistan and Iraq. That is fine. Bush led this nation to war. One was "the good war". One "the bad war".

The Taliban, AQ, Sadaam, Osama, and Islam surely had roles to play. The NEOCONS... Come on man. :shakeh:

Whatever. Don't deflect. I made a valid point don't you think? Israel seized and held lands towards its defense after the 67 war. The Sinai was given back by treaty with Egypt right? Gaza is in the control of the peaceful palestinians, and the Golon Heights and other lands are maintained and even developed to enhance the defense of Israel.

Centrist, you and I both know Arafat had PEACE in his hands! Israel wants nothing other than PEACE! Believe it, or not.

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 08 08:55

Of course Israel wants peace, just on its own terms and at the expense of non-Jewish people who've occupied the areas you mention in some cases for hundreds/thousands of years.

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Crux
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 08 09:06

The Jewish people are not new comers to The Land. Remember too, the non-Jewish people in Israel are more free, more prosperous, and have better lives than non-jewish people in most of the world! Except America. Israel IS. The state of Israel EXISTS. America IS. Everyone wants everything on their own terms.

I reject the terms of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Muslim Brotherhood and so should you. Do you?

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 08 09:37

Let me state my views on the Middle East clearly:

1. I subscribe to realpolitik; might doesn't necessarily make right, but it does make reality.
2. The Jews and the non-Jews of the region both have practical reasons for their actions, and the animosity between them won't disappear any time soon.
3. The primary U.S. interest in the Middle East is oil, which lies under Arab feet.
4. U.S. policies in the area are biased toward Israel because our polticians require Jewish money and influence to get elected.
5. The Arabs with the oil see this bias clearly and don't like the U.S. (The average Israeli also doesn't like the U.S., but for different reasons; people rarely like their benefactors, particularly when those benefactors make demands.)
6. The U.S. therefore often works against its own interests in the region.

Got it?

Oh, and wrt your previous post, by what criterion is our adventure in Afghanistan a "good war"? Particularly if one is to judge by practical results.

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Crux
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 08 12:43

Post 911 going into Afghanistan to root out AQ and boot the Taliban was understandable. It was accomplished in short order. Now the sticky progressive good hearted part was the nation building that went on and on. In Iraq also. Throwing down Sadaam was understandable, but here again is where the "neocons" screw up. Nation building. I get the impetus, but far better to simply go to war, win the war, and go home.

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 08 14:13

Now the sticky progressive good hearted part was the nation building that went on and on. In Iraq also.


Holy camole! :hair:

I can't believe it! :banghead:

Suffering Through The Neocon Moment: Warmongering and Nation-Building Don't Work
With President Barack Obama further tarnishing his Nobel Peace Prize by starting yet another Middle Eastern war, exuberant Neoconservatives claim their moment has arrived. And it has, though not in the way they believe. The spectacle of Washington using the military in Iraq to destroy equipment provided by Washington in its last Iraq war illustrates the absurdity of the Neocons’ claim that war-mongering and nation-building serve America’s interests.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougbandow/2014/10/28/suffering-through-the-neocon-moment-warmongering-and-nation-building-dont-work/


Neocons Want To Try Nation-Building In Iraq Again
The notion that foreign peoples can be Americanized is a concept that finds little support in practice yet remains alluring to the elite in DC as evidenced by a recent publication at the Council On Foreign Relations by Max Boot. Boot, who will have considerable influence in the new Republican controlled Congress, says that the US must get back into the nation-building business to defeat ISIS.

"Prepare now for nation-building. The United States should lay the groundwork for a postconflict settlement in both Iraq and Syria that does not necessarily require keeping both political entities intact. In the Iraqi context, this means offering greater autonomy to the Sunnis and guaranteeing the Kurds that their hard-won gains will not be jeopardized; the United States should propose to permanently station troops in the Kurdistan Regional Government. This is not necessarily synonymous with Kurdish independence, but the United States should give serious consideration to dropping its longtime opposition to the creation of a Kurdish state or possibly even two—one in Syria and one in Iraq."
http://news.firedoglake.com/2014/11/19/neocons-want-to-try-nation-building-in-iraq-again/

Why neocons think we need war
"By keeping America perpetually involved in nation-building around the world, neoconservative rulers will have the opportunity to exercise their statesmanlike virtues. There can be no statesmanship without politics and there can be no truly magnanimous statesmanship without war, so the neocons fear and loathe moral principles that might deny them this outlet." [A quote from Cato essay by C. Bradley Thompson, a professor of political science at Clemson University and author of "Neoconservatism: An Obituary of an Idea"]
http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/03/national-greatness_imperative

Neocon 101: What do neoconservatives believe?.
Today, both conservatives and neocons favor a robust US military. But most conservatives express greater reservations about military intervention and so-called nation building. Neocons share no such reluctance. The post 9/11-campaigns against regimes in Afghanistan and Iraq demonstrate that the neocons are not afraid to force regime change and reshape hostile states in the American image. Neocons believe the US must do to whatever it takes to end state-supported terrorism. For most, this means an aggressive push for democracy in the Middle East. Even after 9/11, many other conservatives, particularly in the isolationist wing, view this as an overzealous dream with nightmarish consequences.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/neocon-101-what-do-neoconservatives-believe/6483


While it's true that all Americans think we have the greatest democracy in the world and everybody would just love to pattern their governments on ours, and despite our politicians of all stripes using these delusions to pander to us, nobody pursues nation building like the neocons!

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 09 09:53

It seems Mr. Beinart shares my views on the problem with U.S. policy in the Middle East. The following are a couple of clips from his article in The Atlantic, Where Are the Anti-War Democrats on Iran?:
What’s the reason for this gulf between popular and congressional opinion? In part, it’s because hawks are more mobilized. An ultra-hard line against Iran has been near the top of the agenda of AIPAC—and its associated political action committee—for two decades now. AIPAC distributes its money to both parties. But in recent years it has been joined by GOP billionaires, like Sheldon Adelson, who have been liberated by the Supreme Court to spend vast sums for the purposes of shifting the Israel and Iran debates further right. Tom Cotton alone got more than $2 million from these Iran hawks in his 2014 Senate run.
<snip>
There are several reasons for all this. It’s partly because when it comes to foreign policy, conservative donors are more single-minded than liberal ones. Every Republican politician knows that Adelson conditions his checks on their Iran vote. Even dovish Democratic donors, by contrast, generally care about issues like abortion, gay marriage, gun control and climate change, which makes them more willing to donate to Schumer or Clinton despite their differences on Iran.


"Money Makes The World Go Round" :dance14:

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 19 09:14

And it's not just oil that rocks us in the Middle East:
WASHINGTON — To wage war in Yemen, Saudi Arabia is using F-15 fighter jets bought from Boeing. Pilots from the United Arab Emirates are flying Lockheed Martin’s F-16 to bomb both Yemen and Syria. Soon, the Emirates are expected to complete a deal with General Atomics for a fleet of Predator drones to run spying missions in their neighborhood.

As the Middle East descends into proxy wars, sectarian conflicts and battles against terrorist networks, countries in the region that have stockpiled American military hardware are now actually using it and wanting more. The result is a boom for American defense contractors looking for foreign business in an era of shrinking Pentagon budgets — but also the prospect of a dangerous new arms race in a region where the map of alliances has been sharply redrawn.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/world/middleeast/sale-of-us-arms-fuels-the-wars-of-arab-states.html?google_editors_picks=true&_r=0

Brought to you by a "shining city upon a hill."
:gun:

(Bearing in mind this is how I made my nut, one might say there's nothing like a reformed sinner.) :tiphat:

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Wise One
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Wise One » 2015 Apr 19 09:35

1Centrist wrote:(Bearing in mind this is how I made my nut, one might say there's nothing like a reformed sinner.)

Yeah, me too.

Somehow through it all I have been fairly adept at distinguishing reality from propaganda. I did my job, well, but was always able to find a way of serving the former while pushing the latter aside.

I never really "went native," an ever-present danger in every organization. Group-think can overwhelm any individual's reason, so the constant challenge is holding on to an ability to distinguish between the two.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 19 09:49

I getcha, WO. I started out as a true believer cold warrior. After the Soviet Union imploded .... Well, what are you going to do with a limited skill set? :dontknow:

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 22 07:38

From an RCP article Would Iran Deal Imperil Jews' Loyalty to Democratic Party?
Republicans are not only politically more supportive of Israel in the Middle East conflict, they are much more likely than Democrats to believe that God gave Israel to the Jewish people. A 2013 Pew Research survey found a 58 percent majority of Republicans holding this view, compared with only 36 percent of Democrats and 42 percent of Independents. Analysis of the survey suggests that this is partly because Republicans are more likely to believe in God than Democrats. But even when the comparison is limited only to people who believe in God, Republicans are still significantly more inclined than Democrats to hold the view that God gave Israel to the Jewish people.

:banghead:

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Juggler
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Juggler » 2015 Apr 22 09:22

Yes, 1Centrist, They are very good at what they do. Like this:

Image

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Crux
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 22 12:08

No grasp of the existential or the sweep of history. Heck. No grasp of the last 35 years...

ISIS is deserving of violent confrontation on the battlefield, wherever the battle field is.

The left is too often too good at excusing thugs and jihadists.

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 22 13:05

I think it's more like the left isn't so anxious to send our folks into harm's way when there's no clear and present danger. Only GOP politicians and their rightwing hawkish base think ISIS presents an immediate existential threat to the U.S. that we must counter ASAP with all our might. And, of course, raising taxes to cover such an adventure would be out of the question.

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Crux
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 22 18:23

No clear and present danger... ISIS, like AQ, definitely got us in their sights. The very nature of what ISIS is needs to be grappled with.
We will just have to disagree on the existential threat. I see it. You don't. Fine.

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 22 19:40

Some people see a bogeyman under every bed, generally they watch the Fox News Channel and vote Republican. Let the Shias, Sunnis, Kurds, and Turks work it out while we protect the Straits of Hormuz and the Gulf oil fields, and concurrently sell arms to all concerned. As Coolidge said, “The chief business of the American people is business.”
:hail: $$$$$$

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Crux
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How some view ISIS

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 23 07:36

1Centrist wrote:Some people see a bogeyman under every bed...


:shakeh:

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 23 07:47

If I were in our government, I'd be more worried about mailmen with gyrocopters who actually understand the problem.

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Crux
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 23 08:03

Like Hillary pledging to raise 2.5 Billion towards her campaign, more than Obama/Romney combined? Mailmen with gyro-copters are not going nuclear, seeking the violent destruction of Israel and America, enslave little girls, or behead Christians on the beaches of the Mediterranean.

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 23 08:11

Oh, so you're a bleeding-heart liberal, but only for foreigners. Of course, I bet you're not concerned about the ones we kill.