Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

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Crux
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 23 11:21

1Centrist wrote:Oh, so you're a bleeding-heart liberal, but only for foreigners. Of course, I bet you're not concerned about the ones we kill.

This is nonsense. Centrist, you are absolutely being an asshat to say what you said to me above. We are watching a Christian Holocaust.

We do not live in a consequence free zone. The options are to do nothing, or something. We WILL violently oppose ISIS. ISIS is systematically trying to wipe out Christianity. You believe that? I do. ISIS does. ISIS treats women and children as animals. Little girls are being enslaved. Prices set by age and religion. ISIS kills the men of the village and enslaves the children and women. Documented kidnappings of thousands of women and children. 2000 year old Christian populations that survived Genghis Khan!

The Pope has said there is a complicit silence. SEE the trouble coming. Take it seriously. Shame on you if you have watched the sweep of this over the last generation. SPEAK UP for these people as you would have someone speak for you. ISIS is here, online, over our border, in our country.

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 23 11:36

"A Christian Holocaust" Oh, the drama! :laughing: Is this more or less important than the war on Christmas?

Seriously, the U.S. has killed thousands of Moslems, but they don't count? ISIS is a problem, but it's not a clear and present danger to us. And for pete's sake, protecting Christians around the world is definitely not our role! You sound like Urban II, but this ain't 1095CE. (I would have used AD, but that's so last century.)
:turn:

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 23 11:55

You know, Crux, here's the major difference in our view of things: I've actually lived or worked in a number of hotspots around the world. I was not and am not overly afraid of danger. In my opinion, Americans are a tad wussy when it comes to this, ready to give up their liberties and way of life for the illusion of being completely safe, which we cannot be, of course.

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Bigbux Stogeychomper
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Bigbux Stogeychomper » 2015 Apr 23 13:42

Crux wrote:ISIS is systematically trying to wipe out Christianity. You believe that? I do. ISIS does. ISIS treats women and children as animals. Little girls are being enslaved. Prices set by age and religion. ISIS kills the men of the village and enslaves the children and women. Documented kidnappings of thousands of women and children. 2000 year old Christian populations that survived Genghis Khan! ISIS is here, online, over our border, in our country.

Holy shit. My wife asked me to drop by Krogers and bring home some chicken for tonight.

No way. Crux has schooled me well.

I'm hiding in the basement with a shotgun and a pistol. Let 'em come. I'm ready.

I told my wife to serve Kraft Macaroni and Cheese the rest of the week. If she wants something else, she can damn well go get it herself. I'm not going out where ISIS can get me.

:hail:

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Crux
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Not deniable.

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 23 14:45

The war on Christmas? Again, you resort to invective and simply seek to demean me.

http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/03/ ... ddle-east/

"Before the start of the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, the country was home to 1.5 million Christians. The vast majority of them have now left their homes for in Iraqi Kurdistan or else countries overseas. Hundreds of thousands of Christians in Syria fled the country as it after it slipped into civil war four years ago."

http://thefederalist.com/2014/08/01/don ... hristians/

On Friday, June 18, word went out from the mosques of Mosul that Christians could “convert, leave, or die.” They had until noon the next day. IS supporters spray-painted a red Arabic “N” on Christian homes and property. The “N” is for Nazarene, a Middle-Eastern slur for Christians.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-christi ... 1405984542

"Imagine if a fundamentalist Christian sect captured the French city of Lyon and began a systematic purge of Muslims. Their mosques were destroyed, their crescents defaced, the Koran burned and then all Muslims forced to flee or face execution. Such an event would be unthinkable today, and if it did occur Pope Francis and all other Christian leaders would denounce it and support efforts by governments to stop it."

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 23 14:48

Crux, you surely realize there are other people in the world besides Christians. You should care about them, too, and also grow a set. The world's a dangerous place, get used to it.

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Crux
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Attacking ME is telling. It shows you to be ignorant.

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 23 14:55

Call it a purge. A terrible tragedy. It is not deniable. Make fun of me, it doesn't lessen the reality. Christians are the most persecuted religious group on the planet. As for the U.S. killing Muslims. We fought with and for Muslims and killed Muslims it is true. I do not deny that. What is happening to Christians at the hands of ISIS is ABSOLUTELY a systematic religious PURGE. Call it genocide. Call it holocaust. We must use big words to grapple with the reality...

Attacking ME and ascribing me as hiding or fearful is just so much crap. Here from the HUFFPO: "FINAL SOLUTION"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sheldon-f ... 59800.html

"A horrific fate awaits the Christians in the Arab world, particularly in Iraq and Syria. Yet, the world is silent. The progressive left wing has its own ideological agenda, to which the Christians of the Middle East are irrelevant. The two most powerful Christian-majority countries, the United States and Russia, are too distracted by a crisis both nations manufactured over another Christian-majority country, Ukraine, to intervene and prevent the unfolding slaughter.

The first genocide of the twenty-first century approaches, yet the world displays profound indifference. As we all bear witness to another mass extermination in human history, it is a scathing reminder that the capacity of the human race to forget the lessons of the past remains daunting."

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Crux
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 23 15:02

1Centrist wrote:Crux, you surely realize there are other people in the world besides Christians. You should care about them, too, and also grow a set. The world's a dangerous place, get used to it.


I fully realize the world is dangerous. I am just ringing the bell.
I do care about INNOCENTS.
We fought for innocents in Afghanistan and Iraq. I fully get it.

ISIS is a danger FAR greater than AQ.
Do you agree? I do.
Do you believe AQ deserved our Military response? In Afghanistan? I do.

We can sit back and you can posture.

"Grow a pair"? I know the temptation to posture is great in you oh learned one. This is not very difficult. Grow a set? Why do you go there?

Your, "I have been in "hot spots" and don't "particularly fear"" assertions aside, what have I asserted or advanced that is so off? That Christians are being targeted in an apocalyptic fashion, quite literally, by a modern day barbaric holocaust, and it's called, "Living under the Caliphate"...

Lets not "grow a pair" let's grow a sense of outrage and confront it. :beer: Drink to THAT!

Christians and Muslims are united in a necessary and violent struggle for peaceful coexistence.
It is coming at the barrel of a gun and who is there to stop it? The Kurds. The Christians. The Muslims.


I am saying PROTECT THEM! We owe it in a long string of needing to do the right thing. Minority communities.
Think Globally and Act Locally or the other way around you can not come to another conclusion. ISIS IS BAD.

IT WILL REQUIRE VIOLENT OPPOSITION ON EVERY FRONT LINE. Unfortunately for the world those front lines are both local and global.

Mass BEHEADINGS and mass graves. ISIS. Centrist, do they pose a more significant threat than AQ?
Is ISIS deserving of violent opposition by US? Absolutely yes. In Principle as they do threaten world peace from the Sunni side.
The Shiites... Who are they? :hum: The IRANIANS. Right... :hum: Hezbolla. Hamas. What can go wrong here? Existential? :hum:

You Centrist One? Come on man. Can we call on the United Nations?
You are satisfied with the status quo? ISIS is who. Sunni. Remnants of Saddaam's Kabal.
Sunnis and Christian Minorities deserve to live in peace. Sunni Tribesmen who do not partner with ISIS are targeted.
Christians are being particularly targeted. In sub-Saharan Africa. We better care and stop if we can and stop posturing.
Last edited by Crux on 2015 Apr 23 17:31, edited 1 time in total.

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 23 16:05

Well, if you can't defend your positions .... :cry2:

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Crux
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for pete sake who ever pete was

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 23 18:30

No refutation just insult... weak stuff.

It would be funny, excepting for how crucial surviving and thriving in the world of humanity is.
Don't toast me then disrespect me. What JV tactics. The message is deserving of so much more.

Thinking it high brow to belittle the messenger in so crude of ways is LAME. :typ: Just sayin'.

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Crux
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POSER

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 23 19:00

1Centrist wrote:You know, Crux, here's the major difference in our view of things: I've actually lived or worked in a number of hotspots around the world. I was not and am not overly afraid of danger. In my opinion, Americans are a tad wussy when it comes to this, ready to give up their liberties and way of life for the illusion of being completely safe, which we cannot be, of course.



You speak well for yourself as you demean me. You turn yourself into a caricature. It is a bullying that could be instructive, if you cared.

I have "actually lived and worked in a number of hotspots around the world" too my friend. ON the street. IN the "bush". Worked a job as a young person of 19 and 20 where is was assaulted and threatened with gunfire. I have a clear view on these matter. I have been down pressed and vulnerable. I have been victimized and taken advantage of. I can go on.

I could really care less for your Way. Whatever you call yourself, "centrist", own it. Centrist denotes an honorable reasonable well thought out man of the people. The common man. The enlightened elitist? No not that...

INDEPENDENT! The Voice of Reason in The Din of Chaos and all...

It is my humanity you seek to deny that is so very offensive and power over...
The tough guy act doesn't suit the Poser, rather it is the stuff of a Tin Soldier.
:typ:

Yep. Not worth it. But I try.

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 23 19:46

When I ask you questions, I'd prefer answers, like I try to answer your questions. Instead, you just go off on tangents. You're incapable of defending your positions. This is not unusual for ideologues.

Let us not overlook that your comment "Centrist, you are absolutely being an asshat" preceded all my invective. And your comment was in response to my jokingly calling you a "bleeding-heart liberal," which is patently absurd and so meant to be minor poke since everyone knows you're a diehard conservative. Crux, if you can't take the heat ....

And if you want to see a real poser:

Image

Above was taken not too far from here:

Image

In any case, I thought it was adieu for you?

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Coondog
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Coondog » 2015 Apr 24 01:43

The progressive left wing has its own ideological agenda, to which the Christians of the Middle East are irrelevant.


Our progressive left winger forbearers weren't all that concerned with Christians in Nazi Germany, either. So.....what's the upside of passing off what counts as ordinary social interaction in the Middle East (and has for uncounted eons) as some kind of religious war we just have to get involved in?

Millions slaughtering one another over whose imaginary friend is taller? For what?

The existence of barbarians apt to come along and wreak havoc is nothing new. It is a state common to humanity ever since Cain went all Edward Scissorhands on Abel. The big difference is that our technologically superior civilization has managed to hand over sophisticated weaponry to people only slightly evolved from lizards and we're supposed to be afraid enough to go about slaying them by the bushel in their own back yards because they don't got no Christian upbringing.

Fear and ethnocentrism are the only reasons for us to give them a second glance. Plus, it's nothing Christians wouldn't do to Muslims here if they thought they could get away with it. Same sentiment, different methodology. For now.

In fifteen years, Al Qaeda has not managed to position themselves under our beds, as feared. ISIS is likely to have no better time of it.

Sleep well, little camper. Progressive left wingers have got your back!

Coondog :sleepy:

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Crux
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 24 07:43

You said that I am not concerned about the ones we kill. THAT is why I called you an ass hat. To suggest I don't care about the deaths of innocents? THAT is invective. I care deeply. You accuse me of not backing up my arguments, but I have have absolutely supported my contention that we are witnessing a slaughter and purge of Christians in the middle east and in Africa that is HISTORIC. What we are witnessing is an absolutely HISTORIC situation. You didn't like the word "HOLOCAUST" but even a linked HUFFPO article is titled with the harkening words "FINAL SOLUTION".

Go back and look at your reaction to my statement of fact. It is not the heat, it is the hypocritical invective I want no part of but it is thick here.
I can't stand the assertions that Christians would do to Muslims here what Muslims are doing to Christians there, as coondog above just posited.

Or should I say, deposited. What crap.

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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 24 07:57

Two questions, Crux. If you can't answer them directly, don't respond.

Why is this ISIS-Christian thing a U.S. problem to solve?

What should the U.S. do if it were?

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Crux
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 24 08:24

Yes we have a moral imperative to "solve" the ISIS-Christian thing. In fact the U.S. is involved in the solution, is it not?
We fought and died in Iraq to give that nation over from Tyranny after 911 as a strategic imperative. Yes. And contrary to clown's assertion not I not anyone I can lay a finger on is seeking to "kill Muslims because they will not convert. We should be more involved through proxies like the Kurds and the Christians and the Yazidis and the Assyrian. I have said ALL this.

You are not too keen on answering questions sometime, like, is ISIS deserving of violent confrontation on the battle field and is there a moral imperitive for good people to take up that fight? YES of course is the correct answer. I have answered your three questions again and again. Are we witnessing an historic purge/barbarous slaughter of Christian by ISIS? YES of course. Is ISIS a greater threat to the World and the U.S. than AQ? YES of course...

I just don't hear you speaking to the truth, or answering the questions, or ringing the bell.

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Crux
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This is not hard to see.

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 24 08:27

Crux wrote:No grasp of the existential or the sweep of history. Heck. No grasp of the last 35 years...
ISIS is deserving of violent confrontation on the battlefield, wherever the battle field is.
The left is too often too good at excusing thugs and jihadists.

It was true when I posted it the first time. It is true after all your invective, testicular posing, and personal insult.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________

It is hanging out thick in the air.

Ringing the bell of truth is a not silent dog whistle to the left. It riles them up.

The equivalency card is played, "Christians here would do to Muslims what Muslims are doing to Christians there". Of course there it no comparison at all in context or scale or reality. The false narrative is employed, like the motivation is "to kill Muslims for not converting to Christianity". The virility posturing of suggesting I have no balls, and am cowering in fear with my military style rifle under my bed as compensation for having a low self esteem image of my penis in the face of an imagined bogeyman....

What total shallow nonsense.

I mean Centrist, you dance on this forum with coondog and AO quite well. The bombast. The elevation of braggarts. Congrats.

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1Centrist
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Apr 24 09:43

Well, Crux, it seems your rationale for U.S. use of force is moral imperative. In realpolitik — the reality of our world — nations don't operate on the basis of morality, which is subjective and often based in religious belief. Nations act on the international stage to protect themselves and to gain economic advantage, which in the final analysis is just another way of protecting themselves. I highly recommend you take the time to read Politics Among Nations: The Struggle for Power and Peace by Hans Morgenthau. It was first published shortly after WWII and has been a standard and updated ever since.

Our Constitution specifically allows "to provide for the common defense"; it says nothing about saving the world and it's peoples. Washington, in his Farewell Address, noted:
The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations, is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. Europe has a set of primary interests, which to us have none, or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves, by artificial ties, in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Jefferson went further, stating in his innagural that one of "the essential principles of our Government" is "peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none." These principles do not jibe with us chasing ISIS and every other bad actor in the world that does not directly threaten us.

Crux, you and your children can go fight to save Christians or who/whatever else your morality dictates. Spare the rest of us from your misguided zeal.

I must add, though, "We fought and died in Iraq to give that nation over from Tyranny after 911 as a strategic imperative" might be the most naive and mistaken thing I've ever seen you post.

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Crux
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Crux » 2015 Apr 24 23:33

1Centrist wrote:I must add, though, "We fought and died in Iraq to give that nation over from Tyranny after 911 as a strategic imperative" might be the most naive and mistaken thing I've ever seen you post.

It is TRUE, that our Government through Congressional authorization and Presidential leadership made the strategic decision to go to war in Iraq. What I said is not naive, it reflects what actually happened post 911. The Taliban (an ISIS like band) was thrown down, and Sadaam's Regime was thrown down, and Khadaffi gave up his chemical weapons. We fought alongside Muslims. We trained Muslims.
Crux wrote:Yes we have a moral imperative to "solve" the ISIS-Christian thing. In fact the U.S. is involved in the solution, is it not?
We fought and died in Iraq to give that nation over from Tyranny after 911 as a strategic imperative. Yes.

What I said was true then, and it is still true.

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Coondog
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Re: Islam, The Middle East, et. al.

Postby Coondog » 2015 Apr 25 13:54

A bit of hysteria after 911 is understandable. The Taliban, nothing at all like ISIS, was afforded the option of handing over bin Laden or else. As they lacked the capacity to turn over bin Laden, they were faced with 'or else'. Being righteously pissed off, we all backed the 'or else' scenario in Afghanistan because we forgot what they did to the Russians.

We went there to get bin Laden. The botched effort, hatched in haste, resulted in over a decade of mayhem and displacement of the Taliban who, are ruthless scumbag according to western standards, but, nevertheless, had no plans to attack America as far as it is widely known. Somewhere, we got the stupid idea that we failed to remember from Viet Nam that we could mold antagonistic tribal segments into a happy, functioning democracy.

The narrative that crux is selling now is the same sales pitch that led congress to vote to give GWB a free hand to deal with Iraq about handing over WMD's which they had no capacity to do as they had none. Some of us were actually naïve enough to think that the authorization of congress was a diplomatic tactic to put pressure on Iraq to cooperate with international weapons inspectors. Saddam, a ruthless scumbag according to western standards, had no plans to attack America as far as it is widely known. Somehow, we maintained the stupid idea that we failed to remember from Viet Nam, again, that we could mold antagonistic tribal segments into a happy, functioning democracy.

The reason for Iraq was not righteous anger over 911, it was subterfuge to control the flow of oil.

So, by toppling Saddam, we destabilized the balance of powers in the Middle East and turned the region into a hotbed of hopeless radical factions free from authority to form whatever bands of outlaws they choose.

And, now, the argument is that we have a "Moral Imperative" to fix it. That's probably true. Taking responsibility for this mess is a good first step, although once again, the preferred methodology is to fall back on the same flawed narrative that led to the mess in the first place.

We could take a Moral Imperative lesson from GWB after the economy went belly up. Go away and never speak of it again.

Coondog :beatdead:



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