The fourteenth amendment

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Cannoneer
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The fourteenth amendment

Postby Cannoneer » 2013 Jun 14 17:32

the 14th amendment was a very good thing when it was first adopted. The recent 13th amendment made slavery illigal without making the former slaves citizens. The 14th amendment made them citizens simply because they were born here. That having been accomplished there was no further need for the14th amendment. For decades people who have wanted a piece of the American pie without earning it have planed their vacations to America to coinside with the pending birth of a child. To date we are being taken advantage of because of the 14th amendment and it's costing us billions. I believe that for the good of the country the 14th amendment should be rescinded.
In most countries of the world a baby born is the same nationality as it's mother. Rescinding the 14th amendment would make that happen here.

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Crux
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I understand the frustration...

Postby Crux » 2013 Jun 14 21:35

I would settle for a legal immigration model that wasn't built upon ILLEGAL immigration. We've room aplenty. Bring your skills and work ethic. Bring your love of individual Liberty and Equal Justice. Be educated and know proper English. Don't rely on the government for your daily bread and be personally responsible and family oriented. Love thy neighbor. Mind your own business.

Same recipe for the Natural Born Citizen.
Be culturally AMERICAN in respect at least.
We've too many tribal socialists. Don't be that.

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Crux
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The perfect example:

Postby Crux » 2013 Jun 14 22:31

http://www.foxbusiness.com/government/2 ... on-crisis/ :dontknow: ...crazymaking... It's so very ALTERNATIVE. :upset:

This is what happens when you screw up. California... It breaks your heart. In this UTOPIA you don't have to worry
about the evil GOP. The violent Tea Party (what nonsense). Malevolent CORPORATIONS, right? WHITE MALES, ICK!!
IT'S GREEN TO BOOT! A multicultural GEM of peace and understanding! :blob1: And what gay PRIDE marches too!!!
I am not angry or bigoted. It is just so funny at times and so very pathetic. Like drunken Frat Parties or something.
Now nothing against white men, my grandfather was one. Take coondog and AO. PERFECT progressive white guys.
If only they would migrate WEST! NOT to Idaho, Montana or Wyoming. I wouldn't wish that upon those good people.

crux
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Wise One
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Re: The fourteenth amendment

Postby Wise One » 2013 Jun 15 13:20

This story makes a valid point.
But it's invalid to imply it's confined to California because tham dang libruls 'n granola crunchers be evil.

It's a Fox News story, so of course it's hysterically anti-government.
It's done by a California Fox outlet, so of course it's hysterically anti-California government.

Yes, the problem is real.
Yes, it's a problem will affect many localities nation-wide, not only in California.
Yes, to get a little geeky, this particular story was written not because any underlying fundamentals have changed, but because accounting statement formalities have changed. (probably for the better)

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Cannoneer
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Re: The fourteenth amendment

Postby Cannoneer » 2013 Jun 18 11:35

wise one? wrote "It's a Fox News story"
For a scientist you are very unscientific due to your bias.
California is a perfect harbinger of what Liberal America will look like in a few years.
I expect all of the liberals will be calling me a racist after this post so in preparation for that I'm going to put in some pesonal information first.
My ancestry is a mixture of most of Western Europe and most of my ancestors came to this continent before America was a country. I was raised by a stepfather who was one quarter Assiniboine and I lived on his reservation with his family in Montana for several years while I was growing up and I love them and still consider them to be my family too. Several of his relatives and some of my friends were a mixture of Assiniboine or Sioux and African American. The gun crew that I served with in the army was made up of white, black and Hispanic soldiers. We were all very good friends who liver together, worked together and drank and played together. Some of us stayed in touch as friends but now I'm the only one left of that gun crew. My closest friends in the American Legion post that I'm a member of are a black man and his white wife. Her son is the post comander. All of the people I just mentioned have one important thing in common. They are all Americans who love this country and its principals.
Now to tell you about California. It is being run by a government that is one of the most liberal in the country. It was a wonderful place to live in 1957 when I came home from the army but in the years since I've watched one freedom after another taken away by liberal law makers. California is going broke county by county from all of its wellfare programs and Public Works Unions with their over the top retirements. People who are in the country illigally get "In State Tuition" at our universities and they are protected from the law in several other ways. If a citizen is stopped by the police for a driving offence and has no drivers license or insurance the vehicle is impounded. If a person who is in the country illigally is stopped under the same circumstance the vehicle is not impounded and the driver is not detained. That is equal justice under the law according to our liberal government. Its a double standard all around. Because of the 14th amendment the children of these people are citizens a large portion of which are not interested in learning our language or our history or our customs. In short even though they are citizens they are not really Americans. California is so fragmented with the seperation of race and culture and languages that our countries motto "E Pluribus Unum" does not apply here. For California it should read "E Pluribus Pluribus." Going to some parts of the "Greater Los Angeles Area" it is like leaving the country and sometimes you feel like you need a passport. In some areas the signs are in Korean in others Chinese and in still others in Spanish. And in all of the afore mentioned areas the language matches the signs. The graffiti in some areas is overwhelming and many freeway signs have been marked up so badly they are unreadable. Our prisons and jails are filled with people who are in the country illigally and of the few that get deported most are back in the country in a short time. This State won't protect its border and the States that will are being hampered by our very liberal Federal Government.

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Crux
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RACIST!

Postby Crux » 2013 Jun 18 12:49

cannoneer, They might call you racist anyway. Even if you are BLACK AS NIGHT, if you are a conservative, you are a step'n-fetchit or not really "black". We know the game.They know the game. I contend the problem isn't the 14th amendment...


The problem is progressive democrat socialism. It is culturally un-american. It is anti individual liberty and personal responsibility. Look at the Obamaphone program or any other dependency scheme. Control in the guise of charity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... nZUIDQ6TYU Heck, get a free phone and then sell it for drugs, designer handbags, whatever!! I would welcome every responsible hardworking taxpaying productive future citizen.

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Wise One
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Re: The fourteenth amendment

Postby Wise One » 2013 Jun 18 13:19

I have time just now to respond to only one of your points.
cannoneer wrote: If a citizen is stopped by the police for a driving offence and has no drivers license or insurance the vehicle is impounded. If a person who is in the country illigally is stopped under the same circumstance the vehicle is not impounded and the driver is not detained. That is equal justice under the law according to our liberal government.

You should really stop assuming that using the word "liberal" is sufficient to damn something and sufficient to prove a statement is true.

Anyway, your information is nearly two years out of date.

The law was killed because it was unfair to citizens, and doubly unfair to noncitizens who had no chance to retrieve their property.

It's really quite comforting to have opinions based on fact. Try it, you might be surprised.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Coondog
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Re: The fourteenth amendment

Postby Coondog » 2013 Jun 18 13:53

Well, really, with the possible exception of cannoneer's grandfather, we're all what Wise One might call Non-indigenous feral humanoids.

Population shifts are historically natural. Ask cannoneer's grandfather! All this concern over ethnicity is really a simple matter of ethnocentrism which fits conservatism like a second skin. We can either embrace assimilation or continue to engage in de facto ostracism.

The term liberal has been bantered about like some kind of horrible plague, but it is a fact that liberalism, in practice, is inclusive by nature. Liberalism's inclusiveness is, as a result, rife with diverging and often opposing viewpoints. That's why liberals aren't as powerful or effective as a bloc as conservatives, who are an unarguably less inclusive and a more narrowly defined, more homogeneous group.

crux wrote:The problem is progressive democrat socialism. It is culturally un-american.

Couldn't be more wrong.....or illustrative of the point. But, back to reality.......

Framing discussion of the 14th Amendment around broader principles of liberalism or conservatism, however, deflects from the heart of the issue which is really Anchor Babies.

Anchor babies are like the New Black Panthers, there are a few of them around, but their numbers are meaningless in the broader scheme of things.....unless they're fodder for making some argument in favor of excluding people or for blocking their vote.

The 14th Amendment is probably passe, at best, but hardly problematic compared to the myriad of compelling issues currently being ignored by the current House of Representatives.

Coondog :dontknow:

Jobs, jobs, jobs does not translate into repeal of health care or abortion legislation in Spanish or in any other known language.

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Cannoneer
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Re: The fourteenth amendment

Postby Cannoneer » 2013 Jun 18 18:42

coondog, reading your most recent post makes me wonder about two things
#1 did you really read the post you refered to?
#2 Is your IQ times five still a two digit number?

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Crux
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Anchor Babies

Postby Crux » 2013 Jun 18 22:01

The Left champions another definition of anchor baby.

Remember Obama's musing about if one of his girls got pregnant, he wouldn't want them "punished with a baby"?


The GOP led House with 6 Domocrats passed an important bill today that would stop late term abortions, after 20 weeks of pregnancy. You know the long needle to the babies heart which kills it over several hours. A baby with all nerves firing wide open. Then the collapse of the skull, or the scissors snipping the neck or the dismemberment.

What a BURDEN that baby, carrying it around for all those weeks. ICK. :twisted:

This was a more bipartisan vote than Obamacare, by those 6 votes.

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Coondog
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Re: The fourteenth amendment

Postby Coondog » 2013 Jun 19 17:59

Questions answered:

Yep! I read all the posts I respond to. The particular post at issue contains a fine personal history, a biased personal perspective and deragatory misuse and equivication of the term 'liberal' no less than 5 times.

My response to that post addressed what little of it actually had to do with the 14th Amendment......and that refered to what is quaintly refered to in right wing circles as Anchor Babies.

In short even though they are citizens they are not really Americans


Citizens.....but not really Americans?

It is unfortunate that this sort of critique is leveled at just about everybody who doesn't fit with the right wing fundamentalist conservative paradigm. You know.......those caucasions who work hard every day, never cheat on their wives or their income taxes, never have knocked up daughters or gay sons. Don't smoke marijuana or cigarettes or cigars. Only drink wine at communion. They're pro lifers who are pro death penalty. Only have sex with the notion of pro-creation. Attend church regularly and are never, never judgemental of others.

You know......REAL Americans.

Oh yeah......the second question. Coondog's IQ times 5 is still double digits, but in order to arrive at true intellect you have to multiply again by 7......just like you multiply by 7 to measure canine age compared to....... Real Americans.

Coondog :tiphat:

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Cannoneer
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Re: The fourteenth amendment

Postby Cannoneer » 2013 Jun 19 21:20

You may have read it but your response tells me that you didn't understand it and I'm not going to waste my time explaining it to you.
By the way, there is a difference between grandfather and stepfather.

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Coondog
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Re: The fourteenth amendment

Postby Coondog » 2013 Jun 20 00:06

You need not 'explain' anything.

The facts are that illegal border crossings are dramatically down while deportations are dramatically up under this 'liberal' administration.

Facts speak louder than explainations of speculative conjecture.

Now, if you want to talk about over crowded jails and the corrupt relationship between law enforcement, the court system and the penal system in the persuit of tax dollar incentives.......perhaps we can reach a non-partisan consensus.

But, if we're gonna fondly remember the past and blame 'liberals' because life isn't just like we saw it on 'Leave it to Beaver'' 50 years ago, don't expect Coondog to sit silent on the issue.

We are what we are. We didn't get here because of Obama. And we can either attempt to fix it or sit on our hands like Congressional Republicans and do nothing, or we can make up nonsense all day and debate non-issues til the cows turn blue in the face.

If you choose to embrace points of view completely adverse to any basis in reality, and that seems to be a popular choice of late, I suggest you post on the Fox News website where a lie of twisted fantasy is heralded for it's brilliance.

People are not responsible for the fact that they believe disinformation fostered on them by crackpots and attention seeking rabble rousers. They are, however, responsible for repeating it without making some attempt to find out if what they're repeating has any iota of truth to it at all.

Coondog :coffee:

We are men of action. Lies do not become us.
- The Dread Pirate Roberts

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Cannoneer
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Re: The fourteenth amendment

Postby Cannoneer » 2013 Jun 20 01:40

Border crossings slowed for a while due to the shortage of work in the U.S. Probably George Bush is at fault and deportations which are not dramatically up don't mean much when the deportees are back within weeks.
The jails are over crowded due to the high crime rate, probably Georg Bush is at fault.
Oboma care is going to be a financial disaster, probably George Bush is at fault.
Would you be more comfortable if I used the term socialist insted of liberal? They are two peas in a pod.

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Coondog
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Re: The fourteenth amendment

Postby Coondog » 2013 Jun 20 14:39

Socialist? Liberal? I'll wear either label as long as it distinguishes me from anti-social, anti-intellectual trolling right wing narcissists.

Jails are overcrowded, but not because of illegal immigrants. They're overcrowded because of the archaic drug laws and the fact that the system is designed to keep them at full capacity. You see, the Lexington PD must reach crime quotas in order to recieve government subsidies to hire more officers and buy anti-terrorist gear. The court system grows and thrives through aggressive law enforcement. The jail exists as more of a source of subsidized income than any practical socialogical construct. As goes Lexington, so goes the Country.

According to the June Advocate, which is always 100% factual, by the way, arrests for drunk in public within the confines of the City were 111. This is numerically greater than all other offences combined, excepting traffic related violations. Why are pedestrians targeted for such violations in such a lopsided manner? Perhaps its because there's not enough other crime to justify a continuous fleet of rolling cruisers. Or, perhaps its to keep up quotas, keep the court system churning and keep the jail filled.

Using the 'incarceration argument' against hispanics or blacks or any ethnic minority simply illustrates the smugness of 'Real Americans' over their percieved immunity from persecution by the system and the powers who operate them.

Well, power is a fleeting thing. But while one has it, it may be more productive and desirable to wield it in a manner that is socially inclusive and cohesive (socialism?) and tolerant (liberal?) than to attempt to hold onto antiquated and diminishing spheres of influence and airs of superiority.

For good or ill, ethnic hispanics will inevitably become the dominate demographic in the United States (partially thanks to efforts to prevent them from having access to family planning, abortions or contraceptives - ironic ain't it?). And when they have the power, oh, thou 'Real Americans' might ye only hope they have short memories or are a bit less malicious about how they choose to weild that power.

Good luck with that!

Coondog :tiphat:

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Wise One
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Re: The fourteenth amendment

Postby Wise One » 2013 Jun 20 14:58

cannoneer wrote:Border crossings slowed for a while due to the shortage of work in the U.S.
Bingo, there is truth in your statement.
cannoneer wrote:deportations which are not dramatically up don't mean much when the deportees are back within weeks.
I doubt this assertion. Can you document an elevation in rate of re-crossings during this administration?
cannoneer wrote:The jails are over crowded due to the high crime rate.
Wrong, crime rates have been declining for a long time. Jails are crowded at a higher incarceration rate than most anywhere among wealthy countries, because
  • a new corrupt jailing industry is politically powerful, especially among Republicans.
  • Severe mandatory sentences give judges and juries no discretion to distinguish between minor and serious crimes,
  • Police and jailer unions protect and expand their employment,
  • Jail construction companies push for every more jails,
  • Jail operating companies do everything they can to gather and retain inmates, for profit.
cannoneer wrote:Oboma care is going to be a financial disaster.
The present system is a disaster, and Obamacare is the first tentative step to reconstruct it into a sustainable and effective one. Baseless predictions are mere opinion.
cannoneer wrote:Would you be more comfortable if I used the term socialist insted of liberal?
Labels and name calling are merely insulting and say more about the insulter than the insulted. They are useless. We need to discuss policies, not demons.

:coffee:
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Cannoneer
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Re: The fourteenth amendment

Postby Cannoneer » 2013 Jun 20 16:55

I was not aware that refering to someones poloitical position was an insult. But then I'm not an all knowing democrat.

As to returning deportees, the facts are there if you're interested enough to look them up but I doubt that you care. Every now and then a murder or manslaughter is commited by a returning deportee.

And I assumed that the peop[le who are in jail commited a crime. Silly me guess I'm wrong again.

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Coondog
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Re: The fourteenth amendment

Postby Coondog » 2013 Jun 21 13:54

As a matter of clarification concerning boarder crossings:

Released: April 23, 2012

Updated: May 3, 2012

Net Migration from Mexico Falls to Zero—and Perhaps Less
by Jeffrey Passel, D’Vera Cohn and Ana Gonzalez-Barrera

The May 3 update includes the full methodology appendix and a statistical profile of Mexican immigrants in the United States.

The largest wave of immigration in history from a single country to the United States has come to a standstill. After four decades that brought 12 million current immigrants—most of whom came illegally—the net migration flow from Mexico to the United States has stopped and may have reversed, according to a new analysis of government data from both countries by the Pew Hispanic Center, a project of the Pew Research Center.


if you want to read the entire article, which contains actual data and facts as opposed to astrological extraction, just google Zero Net Border Crossings.

The point is that discussion of immigration may best be served by acknowledging reality rather than a belief that supports a preconception. Of course, no amount of data or facts are doing to disuade folks who are intent on maintaining what amounts to a caste system.....predicated on fear and loathing of people who are not percieved as Real Americans by those who percieve themselves as the ONLY Real Americans.

That view is contrary to the historic diversity that has always characterized America.

As far as criminal activity is concerned, yes, illegals make up a significant percent of incarcerated persons, particularly in federal prisons which is where they get put for solely being illegal. The GAO estimates: About 90 percent of the criminal aliens sentenced in federal court in fiscal year 2009 (the most recently available data) were convicted of immigration and drug-related offenses. Estimates of percentage of alien prisoners range from 25% to 29% of the prison population.

That is a lot, but it also means that between 71% and 75% are natural born American criminals. Whether these non-alien prisoners are members of the Real American clan, or some other subset of natural born groups to be despised is probably knowable, but we can project that it is likely the latter. Real Americans, generally, have good lawyers and are rarely racially profiled.

In short, we grow our own criminals and we grow our own patriotic Americans and it can be exemplified that illegal immigrants, who took extraordinary steps just to get here, share the same diversity of motivations and aspirations as the rest of us.

Coondog (liberal)

:hum: Question: A baby and a rat crawl out of a dumpster. Do you throw both of them back into the dumpster because thats where they came from?

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Cannoneer
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Re: The fourteenth amendment

Postby Cannoneer » 2013 Jun 21 14:28

Just went on my computer to illigal border crossings from Mexico and discovered that the artical you mention is pure bull crap.
Answetr to your question. save the baby and get rid of the rat.
Last edited by Cannoneer on 2013 Jun 21 20:19, edited 1 time in total.

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fangz1956
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Re: The fourteenth amendment

Postby fangz1956 » 2013 Jun 21 14:42

cannoneer wrote:
Just went on my computer to illigal border crossings from Mexico and discovered that the artical you mention is pure bull crap


The article is "crap" based on what?????? Let's see the support for your "argument".


:razz:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?