crux's corner...(self directed exile in the House)

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Coondog
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Incoherency

Postby Coondog » 2014 Apr 10 12:32

So.....if we deny that Fast & Furious was part of the Gunrunner Program and we deny that the Gunrunner Program started in 2006 and we assume that, months after taking office, Obama was directly involved in the activities of an ATF field office in Phoenix and we further assume that communications after the fact between the President and the Department of Justice should be freely accessible to people like Louie "Asparagus" Gohmert who claims to be concerned about dead Mexican drug war victims (he's not)..................then, welcome to the twisted world of crux in exile.

Here, in exile, one may dwell endlessly on well intended mistakes that cost the life of one border guard in Arizona or four diplomats in war torn Libya half a world away. Who knew what and why? Feel free to treat lapses that resulted in 9/11 and cost 3,000 lives, or the ensuing debacle in Iraq, which cost even more thousands of lives and maimed tens of thousands more, as perfectly reasonable and justifiable.

One might also lament the difficulties imposed by the IRS on entities who claimed tax exempt status they were not entitled to under the law, but ended up getting anyway.

Up is down, right is left, black is white. How wonderful it is here in exile not to have to acknowledge that the realities of that other, tangible universe, exist at all.

Pragmatist that Coondog is......he leaves you to it!

Coondog :tiphat:

........................has left the building!

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Crux
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For crying out loud. This is simple stuff.

Postby Crux » 2014 Apr 10 21:06

I am suggesting we have a duty to understand all this "gunwalking" activity. Fast and Furious as I said was an operation different than the others in scale and tactic. Justice should not stonewall the oversight process. It is that simple. Allowing thousands of weapns to be purchased illegally, and not having any resulting arrests or confiscations after the fact of these weapons, especially in the light of the deaths of hundreds is troubling to say the least. Americans should scrutinize this and I do. You wanna debate 911, Iraq, whatever, great. I am all for it. The rest is grandstanding. You do want the Executive to be forthcoming about this stuff right?

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Coondog
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Really?

Postby Coondog » 2014 Apr 11 12:23

Ever heard of Operation Wide Receiver?


2006–2008: Operation Wide Receiver and other probes

The suspicious sale of AR-15s led to Operation Wide Receiver. The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. Licensed dealer Mike Detty of Mad Dawg Global informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona. In March he was hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division.

With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border", Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation. These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.

As the later DOJ OIG Report documented, under Wide Receiver coordination of ATF Tucson with the ATF Mexico City Office (MCO) and with Mexican law enforcement had been haphazard. Discussions of getting tracking devices from Raytheon were not followed up. ATF field agents and the cooperating gun dealer had been told by ATF supervisors that the guns were being interdicted before they could reach Mexico, but only 64 of the 474 guns had actually been seized. The kingpin sought by walking the guns, Israel Egurrola-Leon, turned out to be the target of a larger drug case Operation Iron River run by OCDETF. After Operation Wide Receiver was ended, several attorneys at the Phoenix USAO who reviewed the Wide Receiver cases for prosecution found the cases had been so poorly managed that they were reluctant to bring any of them to trial

At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made. After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded. As of October 4, 2011, nine people had been charged with making false statements in acquisition of firearms and illicit transfer, shipment or delivery of firearms. As of November, charges against one defendant had been dropped; five of them had pled guilty, and one had been sentenced to one year and one day in prison. Two of them remained fugitives.


Coondog :typ:

Americans should scrutinize this and I do. - crux


For someone who is doing all this scrutinizing......you don't seem to have gained much from it.

Fast and Furious was an operation that had a completely new agenda. This agenda change occurred with the change in Administrations -kevsky


Suggested additional reading: The Hernandez Case 2007
The Medrano Case 2008

So.........Fast & Furious was different............HOW?

I am suggesting we have a duty to understand all this "gunwalking" activity. -crux


Seems everybody already understands it already........'cept you guys!


See: ATF gunwalking scandal
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - don't cost ya nothing to learn somthin'!

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Crux
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My goodness clown, you can do better...

Postby Crux » 2014 Apr 11 13:05

We can learn a lot of things by looking into it. There are, again, differences between the two programs.

Fast and Furious was FAR larger in scale. It was a gun walking operation, where as Wide Receiver was also a GUN TRACKING operation. There were electronic tracking devices hidden INSIDE the guns. This was not the case in F&F. Also in Wide Receiver the Mexican authorities were INFORMED. This was not the case in F&F. Two U.S. agents were killed, Terry and Zapata, as per the F&F guns. Also, Wide Receiver was SHUT DOWN in 2007, two years before F&F kicked off in late 2009. The extent to which WR was in ANY way flawed, was FAR FAR and away exceeded by the F&F scheme. There are hundreds of deaths CONFIRMED by F&F guns. This is a HUGE difference as compared to WR! F&F allowed THOUSANDS of guns to simply be bought by straw purchasers and flow over the border, to fuel a drug war, and give a propaganda victory to the Obama administration that was pushing a gun control narrative in the U.S. I have laid out realities you simply will yourself to ignore.

Coondog. I wish you would actually live up to my expectations of you. They are not really that grand, really.

Watch this 5 minute video. Remember there were WHISTLE BLOWERS involved in F&F!! ATF officers were ordered to stand down and let the guns go EVEN when they could have been interdicted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EupHuUQVzVo

Remember also, ATF is a part of the Department of Justice, headed by HOLDER. Again, WR ENDED in 2007,
and F&F STARTED in LATE 2009 and ran well into and through the first term of the Obama Administration...


coondoggie woof woof sit lay down and roll over :pat:

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Kevsky
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Re: crux's corner...(self directed exile in the House)

Postby Kevsky » 2014 Apr 11 14:51

Didn't this all start under Bush? Didn't he do the same thing? Didn't his "Wide Receiver" operation use the same tactics?

The short answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT. The longer and more accurate answer follows.

Under the Bush administration, several sting operations were conducted in which straw buyers were allowed to purchase guns and attempts were made to follow the guns to, and in some cases over, the border. The largest and most well known operation was called “Wide Receiver”. The other operations were similar. During these operations approximately 200-250 firearms “got away”. The fact that some guns did cross the border is the only similarity between the Bush era program and Fast and Furious.

Let’s compare the two programs:

Cooperation with Mexico:
Wide Receiver: Mexican Law Enforcement notified, Mexico consented and was a full partner.
Fast and Furious: Mexico intentionally kept in the dark. No coordination or consent.

Surveillance of Firearms:
Wide Receiver: Agents attempted to keep track of the guns at all times.
Fast and Furious: Agents were ordered not to track the guns after they were purchased.

Use of Tracking Devices:
Wide Receiver: Extensive – placed in every lot of guns purchased
Fast and Furious: One “agent built” device in one gun

Performance of Tracking Devices:
Wide Receiver: Smugglers figured out how to defeat trackers
Fast and Furious: Smugglers didn’t have to do anything

Number of Firearms Sent to Cartels:
Wide Receiver: About 250
Fast and Furious: Exact number unknown, but over 2,500

Actions at the Border:
Wide Receiver: Attempted to hand off surveillance to Mexican law enforcement
Fast and Furious: ATF worked with Customs to make sure guns were not stopped at border

Reaction to guns “getting away”:
Wide Receiver: Program terminated. William Newell wrote memo saying “never again”
Fast and Furious: Program continued – recovered guns tracked and mapped
.

Ironically, Wide Receiver provides an excellent example of a truly “botched sting operation”. The purpose of the Bush era programs was to track the guns to and over the border where Mexican law enforcement would make arrests. It was poorly planned and executed – but it at least has some potential to work and serve a law enforcement purpose. Make no mistake – Wide Receiver should result in heads rolling – but the program was not designed to send guns to the cartels.Another point: Since the Phoenix ATF had experience with this kind of operation, why would they think that a program with many less safeguards would ever work? Why was such an operation begun with months of President Obama taking office and immediately after their bogus numbers on US retail sourced guns going to Mexico were exposed as false? Sadly, the answer is obvious.

In contrast, Fast and Furious was designed to pump guns into Mexico, without the knowledge of the Mexican government. Without their knowledge and cooperation, their was no chance of making arrests as a result of allowing guns to cross the border. Therefore, there was no law enforcement purpose. It was designed and executed for the purpose of sending guns from US retail outlets to the cartels. It was not a “botched sting operation” – it was a correctly executed plan with a very evil purpose.

This begs the question: What was the purpose of sending these guns into Mexico, where they were used to kill hundreds of Mexicans?

If one looks at what this could accomplish, the only answer on the table is the same one named by both the whistle blowing agents and the former head of the Pheonix DEA office who was “in the loop”: The passage of new gun control laws in the US.

If you still think these operations were “the same” or “used the same tactics” – please follow the link below and listen to Eric Holder tell you that the two programs were not similar.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1G5x0XmNiA&feature=player_detailpage

Even Holder states the programs were separate and Fast and Furious was begun under the Obama Administration.
Ever heard of Operation Wide Receiver?

Other than a vain attempt to obfuscate the current situation with regards to the current Administration and their relationship to the fiasco known as Fast and Furious, what is your point in attempting to continue to cite botched operations during the Bush Administration?

Here is the current situation.

1. We have a case of a disastrous policy instituted by the current Administration. You can bring up similar policies of previous Administrations if you want, but the fact remains that the current situation playing out in Congress right now involves the current Administration and its withholding of information relevant to determine who was aware and responsible for the Fast and Furious fiasco.
2. We have an Administration who declared they would be "The most transparent Administration" unwilling to be transparent for no apparently good reason.
3. We have an Admininstration who had the experience and knowledge of previous disastrous gunrunning operations but decided to initiate a larger, more covert, less organized and more complicated gunrunning operation. And try as you may, the Bush Administration had nothing to do with Fast and Furious.

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Coondog
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Humans

Postby Coondog » 2014 Apr 13 11:32

Strict Constitutionalists ought to be aware of the phrase, "of the people, by the people, for the people....". Or, if you like, "We the People"

The key word is "people". Whether it be the IRS, the State Department or a group of ATF agents in Phoenix, people make unintentional mistakes, lapses in judgment, regardless of the nobility of intent or lack thereof. The constitution itself was constructed by people....seeking to form a "more perfect" (not entirely 100% perfect) union.

The problem here is that there is a concerted effort to attribute every human failure to Obama for what appears to be an unhealthy obsession with "pinning" something on the president. This obsession additionally appears to involve the suspension of the kind of spacial relationship recognition that the education system (however flawed) seeks to install in every third grader that they may interact in a cogent manner with the world around them.

This, too, is a flaw that is all too human. But it is the kind of flaw that the insistence upon sends many third graders to the corner and places young children in special ed classes, detention or worse.

Combined with the paranoid delusion that there is some sinister, intentional plot behind every human failing compounds the failure....no....refusal to accept reality as it exists.

It is unlikely that any amount of facts or reasoning or logic is going to have any effect whatsoever on the obsessive paranoid delusions that are sustained by suspension of rational analysis of any event that fails to uphold the notion that Obama is a multi-tennacled abomination who hides under the bed or in a closet to suddenly appear in the night to steal your freedoms.

Coondog has no illusions that any of the Tea Party fanatics will ever graduate to the fourth grade.

Coondog :tongue3:

Have a lollypop!

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Crux
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F&F began October 2009 is the FACT

Postby Crux » 2014 Apr 13 12:52

Actually, We The People, refers to the sovereign that is THE PEOPLE. We the people IS NOT the government, the IRS, etc.

So first off you are wrong on that. Secondly, Fast and Furious, a gun walking scheme that allowed straw purchases of at least 2,000 semiautomatic rifles which were knowingly destined to help fuel a drug war in Mexico, was a Federal Government operation run by the ATF (Justice Department) under Holder, in the first term of the Obama administration, and it and it's consequences are what is being scrutinized, RIGHTLY. The stonewalling and positioning of Holder and Obama are troubling in the extreme. This isn't that hard to figure out... Unless you are an outright die hard cheer leading leftist that can not bear to scrutinize their own.

Reasonable folks are troubled by this episode, "Fast and Furious". You lose clown.

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Coondog
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Nothing

Postby Coondog » 2014 Apr 14 11:47

Coondog has lost nothing......and neither have you!

My point goes to the fact that, in spite of everything known (and much is known) Crux & Kvesky refuse to acknowledge that Fast & Furious was a part of Project Gunrunner.....as was Project Wide Receiver and numerous other exercises. What you do not apparently understand is that each separate operation under Gunrunner has it's own name. Of course the circumstances of each operation were dissimilar. The only thing they had in common was that all of them were ill conceived and poorly monitored.

Like Benghazi and the IRS issue, you complain that you don't know anything, then cite in specific detail exactly what happened along with spurious allegations that something that happened afterwards has something to do with it that will ultimately prove that Obama was personally involved.

Grow up!

Coondog :sleepy:

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Crux
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Poor argumentation...

Postby Crux » 2014 Apr 14 12:52

Coondog wrote:
Like Benghazi and the IRS issue, you complain that you don't know anything, then cite in specific detail exactly what happened along with spurious allegations that something that happened afterwards has something to do with it that will ultimately prove that Obama was personally involved.



Obama's Administration is DIRECTLY involved in all three. IRS, Benghazi, and Fast and Furious.

What we know is very informative, but raises questions that deserve to be answered. That's it.
NO WHERE have I "complained we do not know anything"... We know plenty, and demand more.

The use of the IRS as an ideologically driven partisan attack machine on SOME American People?

If you are not troubled and outraged by that you can not be helped or be viewed as fair minded...
Obama is obviously subject to scrutiny, on all three issues. He is directly involved in all three!!!

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Coondog
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Re: crux's corner...(self directed exile in the House)

Postby Coondog » 2014 Apr 14 13:04

What Coondog finds outrageous is political factions posing as social welfare organizations to get tax exempt status........getting it, then crying about it!

You remind me of people who want to start a fight is somebody suggests that Pro Wrestling.....like your feigned outrage, is fake.

That's why Coondog finds you so interesting!

Coondog :tiphat:

Big fan of Pro Wrestling

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Crux
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Re: crux's corner...(self directed exile in the House)

Postby Crux » 2014 Apr 14 16:26

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXfIES-h8Lc

We will just have to watch this one. I say it is HUGE. Ideologically driven partisan use of the IRS by DEMOCRATS is HUGE.

cruz- "All grown up but growing all the time..."

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Crux
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Of course climeate change happens...

Postby Crux » 2014 May 09 03:46

No Doubt. If it gets warmer, the "bread basket" moves north, and folks live longer in warm climates... Control China, India and COAL and get back to me.

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nudgewink
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Re: Mother Nature ONLY

Postby nudgewink » 2014 May 09 15:41

I ain't obeying no dam speed limit.

Hell, control them guys I seen with Porsches and Lamborghinis, then get back to me.

Meanwhile I'll drive fast as I goddam please.

So I hit a school child or two? Hell, it coulda jes as well been one o' them Porsches and Lamborghinis what did it, so don't point yer finger at me jes because I had bad luck.

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Crux
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Re: Mother Nature ONLY

Postby Crux » 2014 May 10 17:38

Crux wrote:No Doubt. If it gets warmer, the "bread basket" moves north, and folks live longer in warm climates... Control China, India and COAL and get back to me.


nudgewink wrote:I ain't obeying no dam speed limit.

Hell, control them guys I seen with Porsches and Lamborghinis, then get back to me.

Meanwhile I'll drive fast as I goddam please.

So I hit a school child or two? Hell, it coulda jes as well been one o' them Porsches and Lamborghinis what did it, so don't point yer finger at me jes because I had bad luck.


So, above you see a TERRIBLE analogy. First, I neither burn coal nor do I have a coal plant. I am just crux. We might craft laws and limits here, and drive the cost of electricity higher in doing so, but China and India seem poised to burn not only way more coal than we do NOW, but are trending to burn more in the future and they do not abide by OUR rules. "They do not drive our roads." It is interesting. We have watched the Ukraine lose Crimea and they are poised to lose more of their eastern lands to Russian expansionist desires and one of the reasons Europe can do little, or has little willingness to do much is it's dependance upon Russian fossil fuels. They have enacted their N.I.M.B.Y. rules and pay the price. We have our own entanglements in other country's oil. I don't think it is often realized just how much ENERGY is needed and used globally. The numbers AMAZE.

Learn how to fly a 777 with wind energy, or ply the oceans with solar powered ships and get back to me...
We could be like France and just go NUCLEAR.

____________________________________________

This week we learned from Harry (D) Reid that one of the MAIN reasons we have "global warming" is the KOCH BROTHERS!!! What power!!! :craz:

kock norting reid.jpg
kock norting reid.jpg (578.72 KiB) Viewed 3050 times

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Coondog
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Mad About Harry

Postby Coondog » 2014 May 11 12:35

Harry Reid has an unhealthy obsession with the Koch Brothers........in much the same way conservatives have an unhealthy obsession with:

Benghazi
the IRS
the NSA
Hillary
Bill
Fast & Furious
Obama's Birth Certificate
Guns
Oil
Minorities
Sex in general
Vaginas in particular
Money
Power
Religion
Weather
and Ronald Reagan

.....to mention just a few.

The Koch brothers are merely symptomatic of what the unregulated do to screw things up the instant you deregulate them. Just as when the Supreme Court decides that Southern States don't need to be regulated with regard to voter discrimination, they immediately display evidence that they indeed do need to be regulated.

Regulations are the standards by which a civilized society assures that activities of the individual are not detrimental to the society as a whole. All law is a restriction on somebody or something. The absence of law is not freedom for all. The absence of law is anarchy. Anarchy destroys civilization and allows the few most powerful, and the worst abusers, the freedom to exercise their unbridled liberties at the expense of everyone else's.

Harry Reid should not be angry at the Koch Brothers for taking advantage of the absence of law. He should be angry at the Supreme Court for the advocacy of anarchy.

Coondog :typ:

Ironic that those who seek to maintain the rule of law under a strong federal government are said to want to destroy America by taking away our freedom, while those who applaud and advocate separatism, unlicensed freedom and anarchy claim to love America most.

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Crux
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clown OFF MY PAGE

Postby Crux » 2014 Sep 14 17:30

This is worth posting: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/09 ... et-weapon/ Watch the ten year old girl dust the male High School JROTC fella in a push up challenge!

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Wise One
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Re: crux's corner...(self directed exile in the House)

Postby Wise One » 2014 Oct 02 10:30

"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Crux
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For the American Way and the Natural Way

Postby Crux » 2014 Oct 02 19:15

Thanks AO. I think it is easy to take comfort in the unexamined mind of label philosophy. Take libertarian, conservative, anarchist, or liberal. They all can give simple truths of comfort. The author seemed to think libertarianism offered him solace. They all can. Liberalism for example: fairness, egalitarianism, equality, and freedom. Shoot. I champion those. Most folks like MOST folks champion those. It is the underling principles and the specifics and the policies and the results that matter. POLICY. There is an icky word. It is icky to the ideologically pure no matter they be any of the above mentioned four options! It is LIBERTY based on individual rights in the construct that is, the American experience, that I so love....
Last edited by Crux on 2014 Oct 24 07:45, edited 2 times in total.

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Crux
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for King and Country

Postby Crux » 2014 Oct 24 07:43

...and beyond that it is LOVE that matters most. I am working at it every day....
____________________________________________________________________

This is the concept right here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-2dKOfbC9c

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Crux
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Amy P. ain't gonna like this one but who cares!

Postby Crux » 2015 Jan 04 09:53

The Cup Song :gun2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QtM7X0xYN8

“The secret of happiness is freedom. The secret of freedom is courage.” -Thucydides