A Separate Reality

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Crux
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Liberty and Chance

Postby Crux » 2012 Dec 18 21:04

There are no guarantees we know. Mom had a gun, a few actually. She knew her son was dangerous and needed to be committed. Before that could happen, her son took the gun, locked hidden or otherwise, and shot her in the head as she slept, then killed a class of 1st grade children he felt represented his mother's love, which should have been his. He lashed out.

Whatever. Having a gun is no guarantee of security or self defense. Obviously. Do we sane and free people hold onto our right to defend our selves against mad men? I know teachers in this county I would trust with arms in the school. I would not advocate they carry concealed. I see a locked secured and bomb proof safe fingerprint coded that is accessible.

You made the point that the mere KNOWLEDGE that there are certain "teachers or administrators who have guns" could dissuade the school shooter, or shorten their killing spree... I agree. It is about growing up, and maturing. It is about liberty.

Got Glock? Not AO...and that's OK with me. Just don't seek to limit my ability to protect my loved ones. If Fangz was my wife, or Amy P. or Loverockbridge, or Nudge... I would protect them from all harm. :salut: If they were a neighbor. :salut:

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Uji
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Re: Liberty and Chance

Postby Uji » 2012 Dec 20 12:13

crux wrote:...It is about growing up, and maturing. It is about liberty.
No. You have it exactly backwards.

Growing up, maturing, is not about "liberty" but about responsibility. It is the realization that the parent's oft repeated truism -- "with liberty comes responsibility" -- is indeed true. Without the latter, there is nothing that protects the former -- certainly not fire-power. And, controlling access to weapons of mass destruction (which a semi-automatic rifle with a 30-round clip certainly is ) is a responsibility incumbent upon the citizens of a free society. I would suggest that the best way to protect and defend your loved ones, Crux, is not to arm yourself but to inculcate in them a sense of responsibility at least as great as their sense of personal "liberty." You, instead, create a false dilemma: Do we want to be free, or do we want to limit the arms that one can purchase at a gun store. That's not the issue and, I think, you know that.

We have a responsibility to the society that fosters us and allows us to thrive. To focus instead on that society's responsibility to let us do whatever we want whenever we want to do not is not to be "mature," not "grown up," but to be immature, adolescent, narcissistic. This society is not about my personal liberty -- our yours, or any individuals: it's about our collective liberty. Your freedom to carry is no greater than your neighbor's freedom to feel secure in her home. You may feel that by carrying, you increase her security; but she might very well feel otherwise. This is where collective liberty trumps individual liberty. This is where our responsibility is greater than our rights.

On those grounds, and for what it's worth, Crux, I find the views expressed in your post immature, not "mature" -- and not at all grown-up.

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Crux
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Re: A Separate Reality

Postby Crux » 2012 Dec 20 18:01

Uji. Get a grip. I think you are missing me. I would say this: Our "collective liberty" is to be a free people, by protecting individual liberty. The god given rights or speech, and of self defense. As to the woman who"FEELS" insecure or at risk because I have a gun to protect life, I can't help her or you. She can "feel" anyway she wants. I am no threat to her liberty or safety. I really don't know why you are going off here...

I don't just "feel" that this woman you speak of is safer that I or other good people carry or own guns. The examples of citizens who defend themselves and others, with a gun ABOUND. AO speaks to Kellerman and Krug but ignores Lott. A gun is a great equalizer. I have posted a few of the stories. They happen all the time. It is why we have armed police, air marshals, and the 2nd amendment. 99.8% of guns and gun owners will never be part of a crime or accident Uji, and "lady".

I believe you nuance, when you say this society is not about individual liberty, but collective liberty. Individual liberty is paramount. Surely this is clear to you. Please don't pick nits with me. I spoke of growing up and maturing. I spoke of liberty. These are important for us as individuals. I have always been clear of the difference between unrestrained and irresponsible freedom to do whatever, and Liberty. Obviously.

I will let it rest with you, but please don't so grossly characterize my sentiment. Perhaps I was not clear...

One more thing. A semi-auto with a 30 round clip is not a weapon of mass destruction in the hands of the vast swathes of good guys. You can pursue the elimination of these, but you will simply disarm the law abiding. The bad guys will break your law, and misuse the weapon. This is proven around the world, wven in countries that have banned such tools Uji.

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Uji
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Re: A Separate Reality

Postby Uji » 2012 Dec 29 14:37

Oh, I don't know, Crux... A nuclear bomb is a weapon of mass destruction whether wielded by a terrorist or NORAD. I don't see why a semi-automatic with a 30-round clip is any different. We're talking about the weapons, not the people who wield them. You may know the difference between unrestrained liberty and corporate responsibility, I don't know -- because you don't demonstrate that knowledge in your posts.

You brought up the women you were prepared to "protect" by arming yourself, not me. You seem to think that what another fears is their problem, not yours. I guess these "God-given" rights -- life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, etc. -- don't extend beyond your property line. Or is it that your "liberty" trumps you neighbor's? Either way, there is no simple, un-"nuanced" way of dealing with the conflict of liberties.
It's a complicated world, and it's our willingness to make distinctions that allows us to live together in civil society.

If you want to see how this society breaks down with lack of nuance, look at the Tea-Party crowd in the House. They want to go North -- on principal, they will only follow their moral compass toward that Northward goal. But they run into a river they can't ford; so they are stymied. Since they can only go North (any other direction is "unprincipled") they stand still. Other's in the GOP suggest that if they go West a ways, they can find a ford and then continue North. No, that would be corrupt. Well, go south a ways; there's a bridge there. No, that would be cowardly. So, they stand like a dumb beasts staring at an impassable river crying "North or nothing. North or death." Their bones will still be there 30 years from now -- while more "nuanced" politicians will have taken the ford and the bridge and, slowly, be actually moving north. The goal, afterall, is to get to that Northward goal, not merely to "go North."

(Lincoln made up this story, by the way. The most "unprincipled" -- by Tea-Party standards -- of our presidents.)

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Wise One
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Re: A Separate Reality

Postby Wise One » 2012 Dec 29 14:48

:clap:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Crux
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Re: A Separate Reality

Postby Crux » 2012 Dec 29 16:58

crux wrote: 99.8% of guns and gun owners will never be part of a crime or accident Uji...

One more thing. A semi-auto with a 30 round clip is not a weapon of mass destruction in the hands of the vast swathes of good guys. You can pursue the elimination of these, but you will simply disarm the law abiding. The bad guys will break your law, and misuse the weapon. This is proven around the world, even in countries that have banned such tools Uji.

Let us look at the bomb. Japan. Yes. Little Boy visited mass destruction upon Japan. Those two weapons were of mass destruction and ended a war and saved an estimated 500,000 Americans in uniform, had the war continued. A war Japan brought to our shores.

I suppose for argument sake you might call an AR with a 30 round mag a WMD, even if it is used to kill a team of well armed bank robbers. Very well.... Whatever. I call it a semi automatic with a 30 round mag.

You are getting into the difference between POWER, which is potential and, FORCE which is applied power in action. To what end this force is levied is important I will grant you that.

Don't argue just to be clever.

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Uji
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Re: A Separate Reality

Postby Uji » 2012 Dec 30 09:52

crux wrote:
crux wrote: ...Don't argue just to be clever.

Fair enough, Crux. But clever or not, I always try to answer the questions that you pose in your responses. Will you do the same?

Your distinction between power and force is a useful one I've never thought much about. I'm not sure how it helps us with the gun regulation issue, though. If guns can be regulated, they should be regulated well. The question I ask you, Crux, is can they be regulated at all? If not, why not? If so, what constitutes proper regulation?

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Crux
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Re: A Separate Reality

Postby Crux » 2012 Dec 30 09:57

I would say they are well regulated enough. Perhaps a private sale could require a background check at a gun show say.

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Coondog
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Re: A Separate Reality

Postby Coondog » 2012 Dec 30 16:41

Ah, a Kodak moment!

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Crux
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The problem is.

Postby Crux » 2012 Dec 31 01:13

It will solve nothing really. PS... The ban will go well beyond the 100 round drum you speak of, but we know nothing about.

Which drum is this? Where was it use?

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Coondog
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Re: A Separate Reality

Postby Coondog » 2012 Dec 31 09:59

Colorado shooter used shotgun, assault-style rifle with 100-round drum magazine

The four weapons that authorities say were used in the massacre at a Colorado theater showing of the latest Batman movie included a popular semiautomatic rifle, a .223-caliber assault-style rifle with a 100-round drum magazine

The suspect also had two .40-caliber Glock handguns and a 12-gauge Remington Model 870 pump shotgun.
In the past 60 days, police said, Holmes bought more than 6,000 rounds of ammunition, at gun shops and over the Internet, including:

3,000 rounds of .223-caliber ammunition for the rifle. It was described as an AR-15-type weapon built by Smith and Wesson.
3,000 rounds of .40-caliber ammunition for the Glock handguns.
300 rounds for the shotgun.

AR-15 is a Colt trademark, but similar weapons are built by other manufacturers. It typically fires a .223-caliber round and can accommodate large ammunition clips. The rifle is the semiautomatic civilian version of the U.S. military’s M-16, which first came into wide use during the Vietnam War.

Aurora Police Chief Dan Oates said a 100-round drum magazine was recovered at the shooting scene. He said that it could have been used to fire up to 60 shots in a minute. On Friday, 12 people were killed, and another 58 injured, all but a few by gunfire, he said.

Officials told NBC News that all four were purchased legally, beginning in May, from two national chain stores: Gander Mountain Guns and Bass Pro Shops.

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Crux
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I forgot.

Postby Crux » 2012 Dec 31 10:38

Very well...

The killer was stopped by good guys with guns. He also went to THE VERY theater that was a "gun free zone", driving beyond, a reported 6 or 7 others, that were CLOSER TO HIS HOME. He went to the theater that belonged to a private chain that was posted as a gun free zone. No one in the theater was carrying.

I think cannoneers point is made by this incident. 100 round drum, 10 round mag, 30 round mag. These incidents are are rare, occur in the post 1990 construct of the gun free zone, and stop when the gun toting good guy gets a bead on the bad guy.

I understand the desire to compare America to other countries. Japan and WWII is instructive. The Japanese studied invading our mainland, but rejected the idea specifically, because our populace is WELL ARMED. It is a true story!

I look at the gun violence in this country, not through the vacuum lens of gross statistics, but in it's truths. Urban vs Rural. I see a broken inner city family and youth/thug culture.

Cannoneer points to the riots in Cali, and the fact that THEY WERE confined to specific neighborhoods. It is all telling.

I see too many that wish to disarm, effectively disarm The People. In the sweep of history, this seems to be a very bad idea.

Happy New Year

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Wise One
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Re: I forgot.

Postby Wise One » 2012 Dec 31 15:16

crux wrote:The Japanese studied invading our mainland, but rejected the idea specifically, because our populace is WELL ARMED.

This rubbish deserves the bin.

Perhaps you have poor understanding of military logistics. The Japanese military realized in an instant that supply lines to any force invading North America were unsustainable by them. That's why they never struck closer than Hawaii, and there only once for a few hours max in a vain attempt to deter us from moving toward Japan with our sustainable supply lines.

Uncle Zeke's huntin' rafle warn't much on thar minds.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Cannoneer
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Re: A Separate Reality

Postby Cannoneer » 2013 Jan 01 09:06

I'm not quite sure how this subject got around to the Japanese in world war two, but here we are.

Japan had an intrest in getting different raw materials from various places in Asia. The United States and England more or less told them to withdraw from their conquests. Japan didn't want our navy interfering with their plans to take the Philippines so they destroyed most of our navy.
The experts say they had no plans to invade the United Sates, But I remember when a Jap sub surfaced off the coast of Santa Barbara and shelled the oil fields there. Wise One is probably correct in his statement on the subject as to why they had no plans to invade us,

Japan didn't believe they could be conquered because of their powerful navy and a double ring of island defenses. Thanks to little boy and fat man we didn't have to invade their home islands. Our military leaders estimated we would lose a million men in the processes.

We were ready to repel them if they came, we had coast artillery, regular army, marines, navy, air corps, home guard made up mostly of world one vets, barrage balloons, and even the local children had junior commando units.

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Crux
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WO&cannoneer

Postby Crux » 2013 Jan 01 10:55

Apparently the Japan Admiral "blade of grass" thing is a movie fiction. Thanks for addressing it.

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Coondog
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Re: A Separate Reality

Postby Coondog » 2013 Jan 02 11:13

Well....we can address this as well:
Crux wrote:
I see too many that wish to disarm, effectively disarm The People.

Really? You're actually seeing them?

That must have been one hell of a new year's eve party.

I've had some pretty strange paranoid delusions, myself....but when I sobered up, I was
somehow able to distinguish reality from hallucination......mostly.

I suggest some very strong coffee and, maybe an ice pack.

Coondog :coffee:

Rodents Of Unusual Size? I don't think they exist!

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Crux
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I see plenty of dangerous fools.

Postby Crux » 2013 Jan 11 14:56

coondog wrote:Well....we can address this as well:
Crux wrote:
I see too many that wish to disarm, effectively disarm The People.

Really? You're actually seeing them?

That must have been one hell of a new year's eve party.

I've had some pretty strange paranoid delusions, myself....but when I sobered up, I was
somehow able to distinguish reality from hallucination......mostly.

I suggest some very strong coffee and, maybe an ice pack.

Coondog :coffee:

Rodents Of Unusual Size? I don't think they exist!



You are really not funny but barring some attempt at humor, FOOLISH.

I am not delusional. I think our very own AO is a fine example of a gun banner/grabber. 4 out of 9 SCOTUS Justices are my Natural enemies on self defense issues/gun ownership.

I have a natural right, and thank my lucky stars, live in AMERICA. Switzerland and the USA. FREE people who's foundation is built upon a well armed citizenry. There is GREAT wisdom in the 2nd amendment.

America is declining I fear, but not by my hands or philosophy...

Keep on Keeping and Bearing! :gun: :gun:

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Wise One
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Re: I see plenty of dangerous fools.

Postby Wise One » 2013 Jan 13 11:41

crux wrote:Switzerland and the USA. FREE people who's foundation is built upon a well armed citizenry.

Gunnies keep repeating this fairy tale about Switzerland. Here are the facts:

  • Switzerland has no standing army, just a people's militia. Most men 20-30 undergo weapons training.
  • The personal weapons of the militia used to be kept at home until age 30, together with about 50 rounds of ammo sealed and inspected annually to to ensure that no unauthorized use had taken place.
  • In 2007 distribution of ammunition to soldiers stopped and previously issued ammo was returned. Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still have ammunition stored at home.
  • When tour of duty is ended militiamen can choose to keep their rifle, but it must be sent to the weapons factory where the fully automatic function is removed;
  • There is a regulatory requirement that ammunition sold at ranges must be used there.
  • About 10% of Swiss households contained handguns, compared to 18% in US. About 29% of Swiss households contained firearms of some kind, compared to about 43% in the USA.
  • A permit is necessary to purchase a firearm, three maximum, with checks against psychiatric disability or other security/criminal record.
  • Individual sales are OK but the seller must establish a reasonable certainty that the purchaser will fulfill these conditions (usually via a Criminal Records Bureau check), written contract required with official ID from the purchaser.
  • Sale of automatic firearms, selective fire weapons and certain accessories such as silencers are forbidden, plus certain disabled automatic firearms which have been identified as easily restored to fully automatic capability.
  • Ammunition sales are registered at the point of sale.
  • Unlawful possession of guns is punished.
  • Gun trade among individuals requires a weapon acquisition permit, and weapons acquired before permits were required had to be brought in and registered.
  • Every gun must be marked with a registered serial number.
  • Carry in public requires a permit, in most cases issued only to citizens working in occupations such as security. Permit valid for five years only for the type of firearm for which the permit was issued.
  • Guns may be transported in public with appropriate justification and under requirements like separation of ammo from gun, direct transport only to marksmanship, hunting or military organizations, to/from a holder of a valid arms trade permit or gun sales places.
PS. One distinguished conservative has seen the light and advocates at least this baby step.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Crux
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Violent criminal control.

Postby Crux » 2013 Jan 13 16:28

Well it cheers the heart to know we have more Liberty here than in Switzerland. Dang.

"And it says something that half of the nation's deadliest shootings occurred after the ban expired, including the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary in Newtown, Conn. It also says something that it has not even been two years since Loughner's rampage, and already six mass shootings have been deadlier." From the article AO linked to.

We have deranged folk, and so called HIGH CAPACITY magazines are simply standard capacity magazines. :dontknow:

Weapons and magazines of 10, 20, and 30 rounds have been available for DECADES. Many.
SSRI drugs and violent realistic first person graphic shooter games? Not so long. Look:

Criminals will act. Free and responsible Americans should not be deprived the tools necessary to defend life.

And more:

"So what's the alternative? Bring back the assault weapons ban, and bring it back with some teeth this time. Ban the manufacture, importation, sale, transfer and possession of both assault weapons and high-capacity magazines. Don't let people who already have them keep them. Don't let ones that have already been manufactured stay on the market. I don't care whether it's called gun control or a gun ban. I'm for it."

I reject this as averse to the 2nd amendment's purpose. It's ability to insure against tyrannical usurpation.

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Coondog
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Re: A Separate Reality

Postby Coondog » 2013 Jan 14 10:56

There are some very solid arguments which support individual firearm ownership. Tyrannical usurpation is not one of them.

Only the most hair-brained, paranoid nut jobs use terminology like tyrannical usurpation to excuse their obsessive worship of the second ammendment and it's supposed unfettered mandate to extravagantly overcompensate for a lack of generous genital endowment.

Perhaps in 1776, when the estimated population of the entire country (excepting the indigenous Native American population) was about 250,000 and the potentiality of repossession by the King of England was at least a potentiality, that made some sense. Today, in a nation of over 300 million with a standing army bigger than the next 17 countries combined, it hardly qualifies.

We are a nation of laws, and it is those laws that prevent 'tyrannical usurpation', not a bunch of kooks who hole up in compounds in the mid west and horde guns and ammo like squirrels stashing........nuts. Ask the Branch Davidians how that turns out.

Really! If we had to pass an IQ test to own a gun, the 'tyrannical usurpation' faction would be the first to be ruled out.

By the way, the leftists and liberals benefit little from this conversation. The gun manufacturers and the NRA are gleeful beyond description. Ignorance and gun sales complement one another quite well.

Coondog

Well armed liberal pacifist in favor of sane firearm regulation