Song of the South Revisited

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Uji
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Uji » 2012 Jan 23 14:35

historyforall wrote:A big problem when reading history and knowing the outcome is shown in the Richmond "about to fall" comment. No one knew it would fall, it takes key officers at a shad bake and acoustic shadows to topple Richmond.

You are right -- easy to second guess. And easy for me -- or anyone -- to say what "ought" to have been done. But I think it is reasonable to second-guess historical figures, to want to know why they did what they did, and to make judgements based upon the data (which, in my case, is pretty sketchy, I admit) what their probable motivation was. Otherwise, how can we learn anything from history?

Saying the South should have taken a deal when no one knew what was going to happen is like saying the Americans should have given up and become a part of England again when things got tough.

I don't follow you there. My point was since the deal was rejected without consideration, one wants to ask why? Stating that they didn't know how things would turn out doesn't answer that question.
I have had the honor of reading a lot of soldiers diaries from both sides of the Civil War ...

I would love to hear more of your reading, history. Perhaps you could recommend some for the rest of us. I was simply reporting and commenting on mine. I'm sure there is much more for me to learn.
What matters more the govt and its polocies or the soldiers that fought for what they felt was right?

Let's say that what matters most is the soldiers motivation. Since most Germans fighting in WW II were not Nazis, but were fighting to protect their home and loved ones (either from the Allies or the Nazis themselves, would you then say that WW II was about German self-defense? Of course not, because the German soldeirs were pawns in the Nazi's game of genocide and world domination. And sincel the Al-Qaeda boys who downed the WTC were fighting Allah's battle, were martyrs to divine justice -- to their minds, anyway -- would you say that the most important thing about 9-11, then, was the sacrifice of a handfull of men for the greater glory of their God? Of course not. The motivation of the man in the trench is certainly important and of interest to all of us; but it is a poor gauge of the actual motivation of a war or, less, it's justification.
Be glad we are only still fighting this war on paper (and the internet).If Lee had not been the man he was we would be fighting this war today, such as Ireland and other conquered nations do.

And why should I be glad of that? What makes Lee such a great leader is that he insisted that the war end, that it NOT be continued to be fought.
You can blame the South for a lot of racial problems but you better start talking about your own racial issues too. MLK talked about racism in the North being harder and more mentaly exauhsting, where in the South it was physical. in Chicago he said that he had never felt such racism in all the south then he did in that city.

Who is blaming the South for contemporary racial issues? I blame the South for starting a war -- and they started it, firing the first shot which Lincoln refused to do -- and for maintaining a war that destroyed my home and the home of my ancestors in order to sustain and maintain the aristocratic social heirarchy that made slavery essential to the monied class. Yes, and I blame Lee for being more loyal to his class than to his principles, too. His great ancestor, George Washington, behaved otherwise, recognizing that his class -- the slave-owning aristocracy -- most make the sacrifice for the greater good of the union.
We are Northerners and Southerners and everything else but now I am the enemy, I am bad. How is that going to play on our younger generation? If this was going on when I was a stupid 13 and 14 yo I would have tried to live up to what everyone was telling me I was.

Whoa, now. Who said anything like that? No one in this thread -- at least none that I've read. I AM a Southerner, born and breed. My male ancestors all died fighting for the Southern cause and all the females were forced to flee their homes with their children and make a home in the Florida wilderness. But, unlike you, I don't see myself as a victim. I see myself as part of a legacy that learned something from this great debacle. Big principals trump petty ones -- as Washington knew and as Lee found out, to his (and millions of his fellow Southerner's cost).

Feel frustrated all you want, but don't lecture me about being a Southerner, or expect me to take seriously your self-pity. (An emotion that Lee, for one, had no use for.) Thankfully, the South has allowed its better nature to prevail in the last 150 years; sure, it was two steps forward and one back, but the South thrives. Not because it is still fighting the "Great Lost Cause", but because they recognize that the "Cause" was neither great nor lost: the South won, in the end, in many ways: it's culture is the culture of the country -- it's music, it's literature, it's cuisine, it's generosity and hospitality has become American culture. It -- not the North -- is the melting pot where immigrants come and to which exiles return. Lee's greatness, to me -- as much a "Southerner" as you -- came in how he handled his defeat: he refused to see it as a defeat, but as a reunion. He refused to re-fight the war; he refused to justify his actions after the fact; he refused to feel sorry for himself (who, after all, lost everything except his life), and he got on with the business of building a nation.

Just because someone disagrees with you, or places a different value on some things, does not mean that they think you are "bad." They might think you are wrong and even wrong-headed, but so what? Unless you teach the younger generation to feel victimized, they won't. Celebrate the South. I wouldn't live anywhere else. My kids feel the same way: each has tried living in different areas of the country but each has come back. None feel the need to fly the stars-and-bars, though; and neither feel that they are the heirs to a "Great Lost Cause." They are both too proud and principled for that. And they are too busy keeping the South a wonderful place to live and bring up children to worry over-much about what someone else things about them -- or the South.

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Neck-aint-red
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2012 May 10 08:03

Southern bigots are, and always will be, what they are – hateful, ignorant, hurtful, and despicable people. They were formerly "Dixiecrats," but after President Johnson announced his support for the civil rights act they switched over to become Republicans in a New York minute.

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fangz1956
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby fangz1956 » 2014 Jan 25 08:06

The Horrors 12 Years A Slave Couldn't Tell


This is a very well written op-ed about this story. If you haven't seen the film, I highly recommend that you do. A word to the wise........be prepared to have your system shocked and to have the need for decompression after it is over. To say this story is about man's inhumanity to man is the understatement of the year.......this is cruelty beyond belief. Every proud Southerner needs to see this and wake the hell up about the Civil War. I believe we have long passed the point where Southern folk need to stop romanticizing this very dark period of our history. It is past time to stop yammering about magnolias, bourbon, and Southern gentility & honor and the Stars & Bars . Gentility & honor my arse!!!

These are the pieces of American and Virginia history that are missing from educational institutions across the land. Our children and our granchildren need to know the real story....all of it.......so that they may hopefully avoid the pitfalls of repeating the past.

Before folks go flying off the handle here, I will say that I was born & raised right here in this Valley. I love my home and always have. But, this story changed my perspective about who we really are and what we really stand for every time we romanticize the Old South.


:shakeh:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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Kevsky
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Re: Beating a Dead Horse

Postby Kevsky » 2014 Jan 26 10:42

I believe we have long passed the point where Southern folk need to stop romanticizing this very dark period of our history. It is past time to stop yammering about magnolias, bourbon, and Southern gentility & honor and the Stars & Bars . Gentility & honor my arse!!!

Slavery was bad. I understand that. Fangz, I do not know anyone today who is romanticizing slavery in the South. What many people of the South continue to do is to honor the legacy and history of their ancestors, which is completely acceptable and right to do. History is never as black and white or in this case "Blue and Grey" as we would want it to be. No doubt, the upper classes of the southern society maintained a slave system which was inhumane and antagonistic to the principles of freedom for all. But the good old upper classes have moved on now to new concepts of exploitation through the use of illegal aliens, temporary work visas, seasonal work visas, H2b and H1B programs and a myriad of other legal and illegal antics to use foreign labor to screw their own country's middle class citizens. I do not see anyone today romanticizing slavery or the period of the South when slavery occurred. What I do see, is middle class Southerners who continue to honor the legacy and history of their ancestors and the culture their ancestors created. Southern cooking, laid-back living, a proclivity towards the outdoors, and yes a knowledge and affection for the efforts of their forefathers in the Civil War.

These are the pieces of American and Virginia history that are missing from educational institutions across the land. Our children and our granchildren need to know the real story....all of it.......so that they may hopefully avoid the pitfalls of repeating the past.

You, obviously do not have children or at least you do not have children in the public school system. I have four children in our public school system. I have had to deal with all four of my children being propagandized by our public school system in an attempt to teach hatred and contempt for Western, Christian principles. The history of slavery in the South is well inculcated into the public school curriculum. We may not teach our children math, english or literature well but believe me, we are the leader of the world in teaching guilt and hatred for ones own culture.

The reason for the importation of Africans versus other groups into the Americas as slaves was primarily due to the slave system already established in Africa and the culture of the Africans themselves that established a significant portion of their own people to be slave commodities before any Western influence even came into Africa. In essence, the ruling class of Western Africa had a system of slavery already established prior to Western influence that was more than willing and capable to supply large numbers of slaves when Westerners finally came and traded for the cheap labor.

Slavery was practiced in diverse ways in the different communities of West Africa prior to European trade.[18] With the development of the trans-Saharan slave trade and the economies of gold in the Western Sahel, a number of the major states became organized around the slave trade, including the Ghana Empire, the Mali Empire, and Songhai Empire.[48] However, other communities in West Africa largely resisted the slave trade. The Mossi Kingdoms tried to take over key sites in the trans-Saharan trade and, when these efforts failed, the Mossi became defenders against slave raiding by the powerful states of the Western Sahel. The Mossi would eventually entere the slave trade in the 1800s with the Atlantic slave trade being the main market.[48] Similarly, Walter Rodney identified no slavery or significant domestic servitude in early European accounts on the Upper Guinea region[8] and I. A. Akinjogbin contends that European accounts reveal that the slave trade was not a major activity along the coast controlled by the Yoruba people and Aja people before Europeans arrived.[49] With the beginning of the Atlantic slave trade, demand for slavery in West Africa increased and a number of states became centered on the slave trade and domestic slavery increased dramatically.[50]

In Senegambia, between 1300 and 1900, close to one-third of the population was enslaved. In early Islamic states of the western Sudan, including Ghana (750–1076), Mali (1235–1645), Segou (1712–1861), and Songhai (1275–1591), about a third of the population were enslaved. In Sierra Leone in the 19th century about half of the population consisted of enslaved people. In the 19th century at least half the population was enslaved among the Duala of the Cameroon and other peoples of the lower Niger, the Kongo, and the Kasanje kingdom and Chokwe of Angola. Among the Ashanti and Yoruba a third of the population consisted of enslaved people. The population of the Kanem (1600–1800) was about a third-enslaved. It was perhaps 40% in Bornu (1580–1890). Between 1750 and 1900 from one- to two-thirds of the entire population of the Fulani jihad states consisted of enslaved people. The population of the Sokoto caliphate formed by Hausas in the northern Nigeria and Cameroon was half-enslaved in the 19th century.[51]

When British rule was first imposed on the Sokoto Caliphate and the surrounding areas in northern Nigeria at the turn of the 20th century, approximately 2 million to 2.5 million people there were enslaved.[52] Slavery in northern Nigeria was finally outlawed in 1936.[53]

Knowing this should we be as critical of African society as we are of Southern society? Should every African need to see the atrocities of their ancestors and wake the hell up? Should we not advocate for current African societies to indoctrinate all their children in the sins of their forefathers and to therefore despise and hate their culture and history? Should we also not hold that same principle to Islamic societies that practiced slavery? And to date, there are Islamic and African societies to this day that still practice slavery.

Now I have to ask, why is this such an issue? All cultures have the their "skeletons in the closet". Why are some so close-minded that they can only see the injustices in the cultures that have been deemed politically correct to criticize but can never see the injustices and atrocities committed by the cultures that are deemed immune to criticism by the left?
Last edited by Kevsky on 2014 Jan 26 17:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Wise One
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Wise One » 2014 Jan 26 11:42

One of your arguments sounds remarkably like blaming immoral growers/sellers in Afghanistan for heroin addiction in the United States. I don't look at it that way.

Without a willing customer, there is no producer/seller. Yes, it's a chicken and egg problem, and I put at least half the blame on the buyer.

America had poor policies for reducing demand for slaves, and still has poor policies for reducing demand for drugs. Criminalization worked well (after a painful period of resistance) to end slavery, but it is clear after a hundred years of failure that somewhat different policies are needed to reduce demand for drugs.

:coffee:
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Crux
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Drama or History?

Postby Crux » 2014 Jan 26 12:29

I will take history...
fangz1956 wrote:These are the pieces of American and Virginia history that are missing from educational institutions across the land. Our children and our grandchildren need to know the real story....all of it.......so that they may hopefully avoid the pitfalls of repeating the past...I will say that I was born & raised right here in this Valley. I love my home and always have. But, this story changed my perspective about who we really are and what we really stand for every time we romanticize the Old South.

Do I know more about slavery than fangz having grown up in the NORTH? She sounds like this history is SUPPRESSED. Well, we DID HAVE an opportunity to bring the Museum of The Confederacy right here to Lexington. We could have TAUGHT this history. We could have had an entire WING dedicated to the issue of slavery, more jobs, tourists, and a real treasure.

It was quashed by well intentioned, inappropriately guilt ridden southern leftists.
Slavery was an absolute ABHORRENT EVIL. I agree we should know the past, and learn from it. We should not repeat the ills of our ancestors.

Recently it was a Leftist News Personality on MSNBC that suggested someone aught to crap and piss in Sarah Palin's mouth like a slave of yesteryear!

Why do I not trust so called "liberals"... :shakeh: They act like they have
cornered the market on empathy or something. It's delusional posturing.

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Kevsky
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Kevsky » 2014 Jan 27 20:27

One of your arguments sounds remarkably like blaming immoral growers/sellers in Afghanistan for heroin addiction in the United States. I don't look at it that way.


Sorry if I did not make my argument more clear but that is not what I was trying to state. All societies, cultures, groups throughout their history have had instances of bias, prejudice, aggressiveness towards their neighbors, atrocities, etc. Those who are open-minded accept this historical fact and judge any society, culture, group, etc. for its current social standing. Those who are close-minded and agenda driven continue to use the "sins of the past" to drive home an agenda they may have against a society, culture or group for whom they have a personal bigotry towards. To discuss the evils of slavery in the South is good and fine and should be discussed. To believe that the South was wrong to have the institution of slavery is correct. However, to imply if you are a proud Southerner, than you need to wake the hell up. To imply that to honor the culture of your ancestors is implicitly bad because it honors Southern culture and to continually critique Southern culture for its past slavery but to fail to hold accountable other cultures that also have a past in slavery proves to me that some have an unfounded bigotry and bias and an agenda against Southern culture.

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Neck-aint-red
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2014 Mar 15 10:57

Maybe not all southerners are dumb-as-a-post shitheads, but they are numerous enough that the smart and good ones have a helluva tough job trying to do sensible things.

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Crux
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The voice of the Left...hates...

Postby Crux » 2014 Mar 15 20:20

Neck-aint-red wrote:Maybe not all southerners are dumb-as-a-post shitheads, but they are numerous enough...


:shakeh: You speak well for yourself big guy.

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Wise One
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Wise One » 2014 Nov 24 10:41

Yes, Southerners are really fucked up, which may partially explain but cannot justify the dumb-ass things they keep doing.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Crux
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doozy you are

Postby Crux » 2014 Nov 24 13:50

I am not even going to read the link. PEOPLE generally are really fucked up. wiseone you really do know better, or else you are just bigoted.
Pick any demographic group big or small and you will find some real doozies. It does not prove anything other than people are people... :coffee:
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I don't know why you are the way you are. Why you hate. I an not prejudiced against any demographic.
Stupid southerners, racist southerners, not even Christian Southerners are a demographic group. :shakeh:
Wearing a checkered shirt and a cowboy hat doesn't validate you as somehow a man of the people...

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Wise One
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Wise One » 2014 Nov 24 16:33

It fails to surprise that you would choose not to read sober analysis of a problem.
You suspect that it runs contrary to wacky right wing ideology.
When the facts do not support opinion, reject the facts.
End of story.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Crux
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you win nothing because you say notnihg

Postby Crux » 2014 Nov 24 16:41

Do you really think Southerners are more fucked up than say, northerners, or folks out west, or maybe New Englanders?
Folks like you suffer from deep bias. The ability you have is akin to saying, "All blacks or all gays or all women" suck, or stink or whatever...
You have a bigoted frame of reference that you willingly slather all over "Southerners!" :coffee: It is at it's CORE, broken. You are broken.
I reject no facts, but any one fucked up person does not stand as a template for all other (insert your demographic target here).

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Wise One
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Wise One » 2014 Nov 24 17:22

Yes.
I am a southerner
I know my people inside and out
There are good people everywhere
There are bad people everywhere
But the South has WAAAAY more than its fair share of the bad 'uns.
As the article both notes and explains.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Crux
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I am done with you for tonight...

Postby Crux » 2014 Nov 24 20:16

Cost of living and wages are lower in the "south" often. This is no justification for the notion,
Wise One wrote:Yes.
I am a southerner
But the South has WAAAAY more than its fair share of the bad 'uns.
:


Not even you AO justify that kind of sentiment. There are posers everywhere, bigot. You ever travel to Ohio or Idaho? You ever see Napoleon Dynamite?

dude


You don't have a clue do you? You just lash out and engage in a self-loathing hissy fit against the south and Christians. You are just a bit over the top...

crux

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Neck-aint-red
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2015 Jan 18 16:01

"Fox News Host Asks How We Can Tell 'Bad Guys' If We Can't See 'Tone Of Their Skin'?"
This blonde racist is a graduate of, where else, Jerry Falwell's "Liberty University" across mountain toward the east. They indoctrinate their puppets well.

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Crux
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That the best you got?

Postby Crux » 2015 Jan 19 10:13

Hates-Red-Necks, I can not find the VIDEO of the exchange in question! Media Matters and a host of leftist sites have certainly put this assertion out, but there is little context, harsh accusation, and even from you insinuation that Falwell, Liberty, and Breem are all RACISTS. This isn't helpful in any discussion about Paris, or home grown terrorists so-called, or assimilation, or Southern Racism, or anything other than political swipes.

I would love it if you could actually find the exchange so we can wee it for ourselves. Try to find the discussion, and if you can't,
ask yourself why not. Let's review it my friend.

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Neck-aint-red
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2015 Feb 22 11:28

Here is the video, the telling racist remark just after 3:10 into the video.

Jon Stewart (we'll miss him so) had the perfect remark about southern racist fundamentalist conservative Republicans who want to put the Bible back in public schools, courthouses, county councils, etc.

In a discussion about the wave of southern states enacting legislation to ban Sharia Law, indeed any law of "foreign origin" he asked innocently, "Now just where do they think the Bible was written?"

:laughing:

PS. Not all Southerners are idiots even though most are trying to convince us they are.

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1Centrist
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby 1Centrist » 2015 Mar 10 11:54

I hold with our Civil War having been fundamentally a conflict between the industrial and mercantile oligarchs of the North versus the agrostocracy of the South. As to slavery, we should always keep in mind the ethical dimension has changed over time, so the general view of the "strange institution" then was not so unequivocal as it is today. The long run wealth destruction of the Southern plutocracy as a result of the inevitable demise of slavery was the underlying driver of the secessionist movement. The South was simply not prepared to stand aside and hasten its own economic destruction. It seems to me that if the political class of the time had been more competent, something could have been worked out to satisfy all interests even if it took a decade or three to effect.

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Sweetness 'n Light
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Sweetness 'n Light » 2015 Apr 07 17:02

Well 1centrist you sure use big words don't you?

I'm not getting most of it cause it seems like to me that those northerners just invaded and shot everybody and tried to steal slaves even though the laws said real clear they was property and the constitution says the government cant just take away property so they had the right to defend their property with guns just like the constitution and the NRA says, huh?

I get real depressed at all the liberals around here who are against God and Country even trying to ban our historical flags like such. They had a big fight in Lexington and I don't see them no more hardly but we were driving on 81 and saw a big one that shows there is still real patriots around maybe. There was a photo in the local paper and here it is for all real patriots who still love our country even though all the illegal aileens and liberals are trying to break it. They should go back where they came from, huh?

Love and kisses ...

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