Song of the South Revisited

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Buck Turgidson
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Re: Free Speech...protecting the Right

Postby Buck Turgidson » 2011 Aug 08 18:18

The clamor over the flying of flags in Lexington is kind of interesting, mainly because it seems to be arousing huge passions. It tickles me to see letters in the local papers, somehow stirred up by local rabble-rousers, arriving from all over the country. Who knew anybody would care?

I'm underwhelmed by the importance of the flag issue in the grand scheme of things. So maybe the City should resist getting itself all entangled over whether one flag is more meritorious than another. Some thoughts:
  1. The 3 flag ordinance proposed seems simple enough (US, VA, Lexington flags only) but it's boring. I kind of like a little color/controversy. "In diversity there is strength" – maybe this is as true for culture and civic life as it is for family genetics. Hey, consider other options too:
  2. City auctioning of each event's flagpoles, all bids welcome. Individuals taking offense at one flag get some compensating satisfaction from knowing its winning sponsor bought some relief for the taxpayer!
  3. Lottery. Individual person applicants get one ticket each to throw into the lottery hat. Mimi draws the winners, who are free to do anything they like: give their flagpole right away to anybody at all, fly a photo of the family cat, or leave the pole bare.
  4. Any other ideas?
:surrend: Let a thousand flags bloom.

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Sam
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Re: Free Speech...protecting the Right

Postby Sam » 2011 Aug 11 06:28

What I find interesting is the reverence some people have for a event (Civil War) in which the country became divided, family against family, a country killing its own. We lost more people in that war than in any other war or wars combined. I find its an event to cry over. And while some say it wasn't fought over slavery, it was or States Rights as they would like to say. That was which States were allowed to have slaves. I don't see any flags for Indians which were run off their lands, killed and put on reservations. They haven't been the same since.
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
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Coondog
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Song of the South Revisited

Postby Coondog » 2011 Sep 02 14:10

Well, they done gone up and done it! Banned the Confederate Battle Flags from City light poles here in the Shrine of the South.

Lexington City Council, in a fit of political correctness, historical denial, fiscal irresponsibility and shortsightedness has succumed to the protestations of a small, vocal group engaging in what has become America's favorite passtime.........being offended about something.

Whereas the center of controversity is a symbol......it has become obvious that this symbol, like many symbols,mean different things to different people, none of whom, it turns out are either veterans of the Confederate Army or former Slaves.

It matters little what one's opinion is of the silliness of Civil War Renactment. The disingenuous claim of reminders of something no one alive has ever experienced is equally of small consequence.

What is of consequence, and should have been the primary consideration of Council, is the fact that, economically, Lexington relies heavily on tourism......and thats not because we have lenient overtime parking regulations.

At issue here is a symbol which is inextricably linked to the historical significance of the City and specifically to Lee and Jackson whose designated "day" the controversy revolves around. And, in this instance, it is not important what that symbol represents to anyone else. It is important what the symbol represents to the celebrants of Lee-Jackson Day who want to come here to stay in our inns, eat in our restaurants, by knick knacks from our knick knack stores and pay our parking fines.

Surely we could have tolerated that for a few days for the sake of those colourful W&L and VMI banners that create such a festive atmosphere for those ensnarled in traffic before and after football games.

Coondog

Born & Bred in the Briar Patch

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Crux
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Political Correctness

Postby Crux » 2011 Sep 02 14:23

Let's not be shy. Mimi Elrod and three others in a 4 to 1 vote stood their own ground and championed INAPPROPRIATE GUILT. This is the political correctness of the leftist. Burn the American flag and ban the Stars and Bars. IT IS A FLAG! She and hers kept a world class history museum away from Lexington, a CIVIL WAR history museum. Now the flag is officially banned. Cripes. History doesn't stand a chance. There is learning and educational possibilities that will lose out to the ENFORCEMENT of the Lexington Left. 300,000 folks come to Lexington each year MANY of them because of their interest in the Civil War. This really was a shame and the Lexington Left should now feel APPROPRIATE guilt.
A Flag of History DARE not be flown in remembrance and reflection ANYMORE. :baby: :baby:
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Wise One
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Wise One » 2011 Sep 02 14:56

I hear you, Coondog, and with a sympathetic ear.

The town fathers (and matron) were apparently advised by town attorney Larry Mann that they were on the horns of a legal dilemma. They could either reserve their silly flagpoles for exclusive government purpose, or be obliged legally to throw open the poles to every scatterbrain. Think flags of the American Nazi Party, NAMBLA, NORML, etc.

Evidently that prospect had them quaking in their boots.

Personally, I don't give a damn what flags fly and am in accord with Buck on this. The best approach, I think, would combine some of his ideas. The City should auction daily rights for each pole to individuals, limited to one pole per day per person. Successful bidders would be free to do any damn thing they please with that right, and I personally wouldn't put a single restriction on what could be displayed or whom they give or sell their right to. This would free the City of any legal repercussions and raise a little revenue, although it must be admitted that there might be some political blow-back.

Which is probably why they took the chicken's way out on this.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Glendale
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Glendale » 2011 Sep 02 21:05

An auction?
It would have given the city an opportunity to hold itself up as a really (as opposed to pseudo) tolerant community and as one looking for creative ways to raise money for dog park??!? without raising taxes.
Why do that when you can piss off a whole lot of people in order to avoid pissing off a few?

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Sam
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Sam » 2011 Sep 03 14:19

I would like some Christian flags. In fact folks I think flags with the Nativity scene on them would look great at Christmas time. Flags with the cross would be appropriate at Easter also. Sounds like it could work.
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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Coondog
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Coondog » 2011 Sep 06 12:52

Haven't seen the actual ordinance, but I wonder if it just pertains to flags. What about those wreaths? Are the Athiests going to be parading next? Do they have a flag? (Maybe just a rectangle with nothing on it, eh?)

If any other symbols are allowable besides wreaths, how about Easter Eggs, Pumpkins, life size blow-up dolls of Lee, Jackson, MLK or W&L co-eds?

I can be just as silly as they are when it comes down to it!

Coondog :toothy:

As for dawg parks....I say open up the whole City and let 'em run loose. They can make us wear collars, but they'll never take away our Freedom! Kablaaaah!

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Sweetness 'n Light
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Sweetness 'n Light » 2011 Sep 06 14:16

I been hearing all bout that crazy flag thing in Lexington and it got my blood boiling too maybe. What is going on with those jerks over at the city counsil who think they can stop history and respect for our brave soldiers in the past?

In my family we really fought in the war between the states way back then and they said it was both our great grandfathers maybe. And they fought for the south cause they believed and we still believe it that states rights is better than the federal government telling us what to do. They should respect our fallen dead even though the yankees won, huh? We should force the counsil to put up Confederate flags lots of times and maybe vote those ones out of office that tried to stop our history, huh? Its like robbing a grave so we should put those counsilmen in jail like for a common graverobber, huh? And maybe if we won that war then we would'nt have all the troubles with all those don't know their place anymore. They make all kinds of trouble and so do the illegal aileens all want handouts so they can drive their cadilacs while the state won't even let me drive anything at all cause they took my license and won't give it back!!!

And your right Sam they should put up good Christian flags everywhere in Lexington instead of the usual godless atheism the governmnet always does on us and go back to our founders good Christian ways when everybody had to be a good Christian or they got in big trouble. I know what's going to happen though cause all the liberals will just say "you have to put up a muslin flag and a catholic flag and a jewish flag" but it is just their usual properganda, huh? If they want to be muslins or catholics or jews they should just go to the countries where they have them all over the place and not cause us all the trouble they always cause us, huh? That would serve them right and they would get a taste of their own medicine!

We got a good confederate flag flying on our house and always will cause it is the patriotic thing to do in our family. I get in a fight all the time with my husband over we fly the American stars and stripes highest on the pole or the Confederate stars and bars. He always puts the stripes higher but it makes me mad cause its kind of like a slap in the face for our family but he says the neighbors might get upset but I don't care cause their only the welfare queen cadilac drivers I already told you about and it would serve them right get a little mad, huh?

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historyforall
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby historyforall » 2011 Sep 07 11:40

It really is to bad that our society has given in to this constant censorship and everyone just sits by and pretends that nothing is happening. Or worse thumps their chest in a feign fit of self righteousness because they don't understand what they are against. If you think the Civil War was sooo long ago just think that there are people alive today (although not many) who knew someone who fought in the Civil War. One of the best local civil war enthusiast talks about how his teacher (retired now and approaching 90) was a pen pal as a young boy to many soldiers both North & South. We wonder why our Country is so screwed but we constantly demonize our nation's heroes. It is folly to think that our WWII heroes will not be next.

The debate is an 1860s vs 1960s fight and as we get farther from the 1960s the 1860s will be more and more studied because lets face it all wars are. As our society becomes more and more mixed we see that racism among our youth is vanishing at amazing rates. A college study was done on the flag and it showed that most blacks over 50 see the flag as a negative, while those in their 30s and 40s see it as the Dukes of Hazzard symbol and associate it with rednecks. Those under 30 did not recognize it as often or associated it with Nascar and Country music.

At the meeting many spoke out against the vile symbol and unfortunately left before anyone speaking in support of the flag could be heard. On the other hand many supporters of the flag were not being respectful of those speaking in support of the ban. But the real issue is that there is not anything that one can say about the Confederate battle Flag that you can't say about the American Flag. We balk and say nonsense but the door is open for the removal of the American Flag from all public places as it is a flag that enslaved people against their will, invaded countries forced a native population off their lands over and over again. But we understand that the American flag is also much more as a symbol of many great ideas and principles that we hold dear. For those raised in the South the Confederate flag is also that symbol. Our ancestors endured something that the majority of the Nation did not. In this argument you can't say if you don't like it go back to your country because we are already here.
I believe in the rights and freedoms of a person even when I don't support them on a moral or fundamental basis.

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fangz1956
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby fangz1956 » 2011 Sep 08 18:57

In a word.........disheartening.

Perhaps at this juncture (and surely would have been best prior to this juncture) the best thing to do is share factual history of the Confederate flags. It's never too late to try to turn the tide of ignorance.

Confederate Battle Flag

Heritage Preservation Association

John M. Coski and the Confederate Flag

This last link is audio of an interview with Mr. Coski on NPR's Fresh Air.

:surrend: ............NEVER!
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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Sam
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Sam » 2011 Sep 09 03:38

Good info. Comparing both flags gives me pause to think. I have a friend who spent considerable time at the Hanoi Hilton. To pass the time he made an American flag from scraps. I understand the negative connotations applied to the flag. But it stands for freedom and I am proud to have fought under. It. Our country made some mistakes under that flag but also did many great things under that flag. It has many dimensions - so many more than the confederate flag.
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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historyforall
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby historyforall » 2011 Sep 09 10:40

Sam wrote: It has many dimensions - so many more than the confederate flag.

Only because it has not had the same opportunity. It is very popular to say The Confederacy today would be a place of slavery and cotton pickers but this disregards everything that happened in the world after the Civil War. Slavery was becoming more and more unpopular in the modern world, but more importanlty was more expensive than what followed. More than likely the CSA and USA would be very similar with the South being most likely the Utopia that the Tea Party dreams about. Howard Zinn talked about how interesting that black and white relations in the South tended to be better than in the North.

I challenge everyone to go look through old photos everytime you see a KKK rally with Confederate Flags you also see American Flags flying next to them. Something that really blew me away was that while there were lynchings in Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia there were also lynchings in Pennsylvania, New York and California. You will never read about it in history books because by losing the Civil War the South really gets the burden for all things bad about our country. The Native American issue was bad but slavery has to be worse. The invasion of the Phillipines was bad but slaveholders were evil beaters of women and children. To understand why supporters of the flag get upset is because it has special meaning to them for whatever reason and they should have the right to express that and have their govt support their right. No one would expect ANY city in the North to fly the flag, but it should be expected from the place they were born and raised the place where ones ancestors risked everything.
I believe in the rights and freedoms of a person even when I don't support them on a moral or fundamental basis.

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fangz1956
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby fangz1956 » 2011 Sep 09 16:16

historyforall wrote:
To understand why supporters of the flag get upset is because it has special meaning to them for whatever reason and they should have the right to express that and have their govt support their right. No one would expect ANY city in the North to fly the flag, but it should be expected from the place they were born and raised the place where ones ancestors risked everything.

It really does come down to free speech doesn't it? Unfortunately, the powers that be have chosen to show their cowardice by attempting to silence free speech of people with whom they disagree. That is a very sad statement on the state of the nation, of the Commonwealth, of the Shenandoah Valley and of Lexington and the whole of Rockbridge County. The poles in question are paid for taxpayer dollars (including the tax dollars of the SCV.) The bridge where the poles are located (as well as the street) are paid for with taxpayer dollars (including the tax dollars of the SCV). Salaries and operating expenses of the City Council are paid for with tax payer dollars (including tax dollars of the SCV).

That makes the Council a SERVANT of the people....not an iron-fisted tyrant who has any kind of right to squelch or silence free speech and the freedom of expression on PUBLIC property for any group or person with whom they disagree. The Council has chosen to tuck their collective tails and cater to the whinings of the supposed "offended" elite of W&L...the elitist academia who don't really support the city, the Valley, the Commonwealth and the rich historical wealth of the area. It is outrageous that this mess has it roots at the very institution that bears the name of the Commander of the Army of Northern Virginia.......a man who risked everything to stand for his beloved Virginia. Perhaps the elitist academics at W&L need to go back to school for Virginia and American History 101....and we can send City Council right along with them.

:violent5:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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Sam
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Sam » 2011 Sep 09 23:02

We need to remember that the term taxpayers include those for and those against. So the question is whose tax dollars are more important.
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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Coondog
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Coondog » 2011 Sep 12 10:46

The point is not about who pays taxes, whose viewpoint is more substantial or who shot John.

A large part of our economic base is tourism......and people come here to visit the gravesites of dead confederate generals. People don't come here to see the gravesites of dead yankees.

People come here to become dead yankees. And, we thank them for it!

But, if we're going to cow-tow to either group, it should be the one that enhances our economic potentiality and doesn't overinflate property values or attempt to persuade us that the way they do things back up there in the Garden State is so, so much better.

Coondog :surrend:

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Sam
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Sam » 2011 Sep 12 12:43

Hey Pal, gotcha its all about money.
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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Juggler
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Juggler » 2011 Sep 26 09:28

All this folderol over flags is a little boring.

Maybe Lexington needs to kick it up a notch, if only to keep us interested in civic affairs.

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historyforall
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby historyforall » 2011 Sep 26 11:22

That will work juggler.

Interesting note that nudity was far more accepted in the South than in the North. It is hot after all and while the Church was an important part of our life it never used to control what we did -Unlike today. Skinny dips and loose clothing was far more common 150 years ago in the South as it is now. The Puritans hated the idea of nudity and exposure. There are some great writings and documentations of the North vs South in regards to sexuality in the 18th and 19th century that is actually very interesting.

I have heard all sorts of rumors about boycotts -this one has been spreading through the Civil War reenacting community like a wildfire- and other protest over the decision that was passed. The one I fear the most and not endorsed by the SCV is to get the American flag removed by using the same arguments that those against the Confederate Flag used. I really don't want to live in a nation where the US flag is not flying but the article following doe not give me hope.

"Goshen College Bans ‘The Star-Spangled Banner’
June 8, 2011 by Marcy Bonebright

The Board of Directors at Goshen College has decided the national anthem will not be played before athletic events.

The Board of Directors at Goshen College, a private, pacifistic liberal arts college in Indiana, asked President James E. Brenneman to find an alternative to playing “The Star-Spangled Banner” at sporting events.
I believe in the rights and freedoms of a person even when I don't support them on a moral or fundamental basis.

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Juggler
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Re: Song of the South Revisited

Postby Juggler » 2011 Sep 26 11:49

Interesting! The loss of public nudity in the South is a price we pay for the promiscuous use of air conditioning, not to mention the obscene practice of wearing suits and ties in July and August.