Planned Parenthood or the A word...

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Crux
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Planned Parenthood or the A word...

Postby Crux » 2011 Jan 23 10:43

Firstly, I bring this up because of coondog's doo-doo from the Healthcare thread:

"It's disheartening that so many people in this country feel that way. It is encouraging to know that you are in a small, yet vocal minority. Enough to cause a lot of disturbance.....maybe enough to do real and enduring damage. But you don't represent...any ideology other than narcissism and selfishness. Your right wing pledges...are as empty as your heart.
You rail over abortion on moral principle and clamor about christian values we were founded on, but when it comes to actual christian values, capitalism takes a front seat and the health and lives of everybody else be damned. You want to force women to have babies they can't afford, then withhold any support or christian charity....on moral and capitalistic grounds. This is the priority of the newly elected Republican majority..."

This will be the first time I bring up or address the issue coondog raised in his rant. Abortion.

Politically I have always been, to use the lingo, Pro Choice. I have never felt comfortable seeking to use the power of government to keep women from making their own life choices in this regard. I am a father a few times over, and have long seen with my own eyes even as a young man, the photos of the developmental stages of a baby. In just weeks, a couple months, that little fella or gal is a baby. LIFE. Killing that growing baby, is taking that life.

Calling "it" a fetus, doesn't remove it's unique fingerprints...


I am personally Pro Life in that, for me, barring tragic circumstance, I could never council my girlfriend, wife, or daughters to have an abortion. I find the idea to be terrible. There are contraceptives, and good choices available to gals and guys. Understanding reality up front, and thinking through the consequences of one's actions before the fact, are sure ways to avoid the unforeseen...

I might say also that I have never "clamored about Christian values" here, though I have a great deal of respect for the Universal Values contained in Christianity. I am decidedly Agnostic, though I pray, was raised in the Church, believe in Higher Power and the soul. I am disgusted by the self righteous, heartless way too many on the left deal with the reality and the politics of abortion.

I want women to have options, and information. Sadly, perhaps 1 in 3 women will have an abortion from age 15 to 45.

I would like people to consider all the ramifications regarding their choices. Abortion to me is an awfully painful reality on so many levels. I can not imagine being the victim of rape, and pregnant. If I was going to die, by carrying a baby to term I would rather live. There are however a great deal of women who, aside from incest, the prospect of death, or rape, will have to go through a process of consideration of "whether or not".

Hopefully they do this well before they are sexually active, or get pregnant.

I will today ask my oldest daughter to read two articles, to make her more clearly aware. She is at the age when "boyfriend" is an appealing word. One article concerns the recent murder charges against Doctor Gosnell in Philadelphia. The other is Chapter 1 from the upcoming book by Abby Johnson.

I link to the HuffPo as they carry the AP story and I noted...no comments posted. That says something.

I provide these links for anyone who cares.

crux

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/the-ul ... ion-in-he/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/2 ... 12701.html
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Re: Coonie the Champion of Understanding and Women's ReproRights

Postby Crux » 2011 Jan 28 11:27

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He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Re: Planned Parenthood or the A word...

Postby Coondog » 2011 Jan 28 12:57

Rats!

I was hoping not to get roped into this thing today, but, we need to clarify a few things.

I'm not pro-abortion. I've never heard of anyone who is. I think we should do everything we can to eliminate that practice.....short of legislation. It's a question of "choice". As a conservative, who wants the government out of the relationship between a patient and doctor, this should be easy. Want to keep the government out of our personal affairs? What could be more personal than one's biological functions?

The Catholic Church still holds to the belief that if they out-populate the rest of the world they will somehow prevail. Their idiotic stance on contraception has led to all manner of suffering as their constituants grapple with the moral and practical applications, as well as fostering the spread of disease throughout the world.

It never ceases to amaze the old Coondog how concerned and reverent conservatives are for life all the way up until birth. They want to legislate every zygote into living, breathing citizens, then eschew any responsibility for them, or their caretakers, whatsoever....financial or otherwise.

So, you cannot claim that "progressives" have a less empathetic view of life than conservatives. (".....that children are mere, carbon footprints, and justifiably eliminated.") They just have a more consistant view of life, that being a concern for the individual (mother) prior to birth and the nurture of children after they are born.

We can all define at what point we are born. That first independent breath on the way to the soiling of a monumental pile of diapers. But there is no difinitive, agreed upon point at which a "clump of cells" becomes a person in it's own right.

I would say that the extreme conservative view is that life begins at conception. Fertilization of egg by sperm.

If this sort of terminology makes one uncomfortable, due to moral imperitives or deficiency of sex education....read no further.


Anyway, conception, defined by unification of egg and sperm, results in a clump of cells which, if all goes well, eventually becomes a person (hopefully a "progressive" one). Somewhere along the line there needs to be consensus as to exactly when, in the course of these events, one becomes a person before abortion can (should) be addressed legislatively. There are three major categories of influential thought (outside the idea that conception begins with the first glass of wine). There is the moral (religious) view....which should have significance only at the personal level. There is a legal view (society). Then there is the scientific approach, which is inconclusive. Until science yeilds a consensus devoid of religious and emotional influence, the question should remain a purely personal one.

Coondog believes that science has already narrowed the parameters from between the time of cell differentiation and actual cognitive processes (self awareness). When all the political, religious and emotionally charged rhetoric becomes limited to those parameters, then legislative attention might be appropriate. Otherwise, the government should stay out of our private biological decisions. And....stop attempting to punish poor people by denying funding for medical proceedures readily available to the well off.

Whereas, according to how I read it, crux & I are in agreement (to some extent) on this issue, I assume there is bipartisan support for a lack of support for the conservative agenda as it has manifested itself in the House of Representatives.

Coondog :usa2:

Born in the USA......in the briar patch, brer Fox!

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Re: Planned Parenthood or the A word...

Postby fangz1956 » 2011 Jan 28 16:43

I always find it interesting to note that the 3 and 5 legged critters of this world want to be some of the biggest anti-abortion, anti- pro-choice people on the planet. These peculiar critters want to legislate and preach about a life event and life choice for which they will never have first-hand knowledge or experience. These same peculiar critters want to tidy it up and put it in a neat little box as they dizzily think that nothing outside of rape and threat to the mother's health are the only times an abortion should ever be granted. Oh my, what a sheltered little world these peculiar critters inhabit. Their names will be at the top of my list as volunteers for adopting the next crack addicted baby that is brought into this world. They will also be on that list that gets to explain to the woman who finds herself accidentally pregnant too late in life that she can't make that choice for herself.......she'll have to suck it up and raise that Down's Syndrome or otherwise malformed child whether she can afford to or not. Let's completely ignore all of circumstances in her life that brought her to this crossroads at this time in her life. Absolutely YES, we should ignore her drug addiction, her partner that batters her on a daily basis, her joblessness, her absence of of familial support during a time of crisis, her age, and all other factors that may not make her able to raise a child.

Opting for an abortion is not the easy, breezy walk in the park that these same peculiar critters seem to think that it is. It is absolutely the most difficult choice a woman could ever be faced with....regardless of the circumstances surrounding the unwanted pregnancy. I've never seen anyone take this decision lightly and many have agonized greatly over the decision. That agonizing came way before the societal judgments that always follow, fueled greatly by these peculiar critters. it's very easy to sit back and preach and pass judgment on someone else for doing something that you will never have to endure in your own life.

Until these peculiar critters can admit that they are exactly one-half of the problem and are willing to stand up and take ownership for their part of the problem, then they need to keep their opinions to themselves. People who will never be pregnant, never be faced with this monstrous decision have no business sticking their noses into something they do not understand.........WOMEN'S'' HEALTH. Thanks to these peculiar critters, many women are denied the morning after pill and insurance coverage for contraception. But I will lay a dollar to a dime that insurance will cover Viagra & Cialis....why wouldn't it since peculiar critters are making all of the rules. And, by cracky, the rules have always favored the peculiar critters of the world.

I do wonder if the current state of affairs surrounding this subject is just a modern day way to keep enforcing old social norms and roles.....keep the women barefoot, pregnant, ignorant, and in the kitchen! What about it peculiar critters????????

Until you find yourself pregnant and have to make this choice for yourself, keep 'em zipped!


:curse:

And just for the record, I spent a good deal of time in my younger years doing volunteer work for the much maligned and totally misunderstood organization known as Planned Parenthood.
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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Re: Planned Parenthood or the A word...

Postby Amy Probenski » 2011 Jan 28 17:13

Attagirl, Fangz !!

:clap:

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Re: Planned Parenthood or the A word...

Postby loverockbridge » 2011 Jan 28 19:50

I second Fangz.
But ALSO, how in the world can you be for lower taxes, less government, but no abortions? The cost of raising a child to adulthood today is a quarter million dollars. So do we just say, "too bad" to those mothers with babies and no money? Are we going to let those babies starve? Are we going to take them away and load them into an overloaded foster care system (paid for by taxes)? Warehouse them in orphanages (paid for by taxes)? Farm them out for child labor (would have to rescind 100 years of child labor laws)? At a quarter million per child....lessee....how much would that come to? And that doesn't count what it costs us in tax dollars to pay for mental health services, special education, juvenile justice, court systems and prisons.
Abortion is certainly not the first choice of birth control. But it is a lesser harm, to the mother, society and the baby. Yes, the baby. Unwanted and neglected children often turn out to be pretty miserable human beings, not surprisingly. They become difficult students, drop outs, drug addicts, and violent criminals. They are a drain on our tax dollars from the time of their birth to the time of their death.
So explain to me again how you can be anti-abortion and anti-taxes?

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Judge not, less you fail to discern...

Postby Crux » 2011 Jan 28 21:42

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Re: Planned Parenthood or the A word...

Postby fangz1956 » 2011 Jan 29 06:24

Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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Re: Planned Parenthood or the A word...

Postby loverockbridge » 2011 Jan 29 21:04

If Crux chooses not to deal with the contradictions in his position, no one can make him. He believes in Liberty. Liberty to take contradictory positions and not have to explain them.
I read both of Crux's links before I posted. Neither one is at all relevant to the illogic of his position. One is a news story about a doctor who performed incompetent and dangerous abortions. The other is an emotional diary of a woman who realizes a fetus is a human being. The further science advances, the earlier we can see proof of that in utero. A human being happens earlier and earlier in the womb, then, huh?
I have had two children and along the way to having them, had three early miscarriages. I learned that nature terminates one of ten pregnancies during the first trimester. Many women have these naturally-occurring abortions before they even realize they are pregnant. Yet, we do not put on a funeral and post obituaries for these fetuses, do we? Could that be because we intuitively know that this primitive form of "life" is not what we recognize as a person yet?
I think we have to admit that is true.
Once a man lays with a woman and emits his seed, he could be signing up for 18 years of child support, raising the child, or having the fruit of his loins aborted. So, guys, wear that raincoat if you don't want any of these results. No, you do not have a say in what happens after that point in time.
I always want to ask someone who objects to first trimester abortions: how many unwanted children have you adopted? and if all human life is precious, do you support a ban on capital punishment too?
This is costly and dangerous sentimentality.

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Tell it to someone who matters. Your man, your children...

Postby Crux » 2011 Jan 29 22:17

Last edited by Crux on 2011 Jan 30 10:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Planned Parenthood or the A word...

Postby loverockbridge » 2011 Jan 30 10:20

I should have been tipped off by the excessive use of capital letters, italics, and bold in his writing, because it is now clear that Crux is all about being heard and not at all about listening. He simply does not or will not understand that civil discourse normally includes an exchange of views, with respect shown for the the views not your own. He is similarly unable to follow a line of thought without hi-jacking it with sarcasm or some unrelated point of his own. The fact that he is monopolizing several topics on this forum says that not only is he a conversation-hog but he doesn't have enough to do with his time. It is an exercise in frustration to try to have a serious conversation with that type of person and I will, with that, take my leave of him and this topic.

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I am sure...

Postby Crux » 2011 Jan 30 11:13

...that given the voices which dominate this forum, I could never dominate the conversation. Many have tried to edge into this left dominated scene. Arguments get advanced, challenged, refuted or not... I will try to use less capital letters and simply write out my thoughts without indentations or tabs. Here goes. Sarcasm is by no means my tool alone, as is amply demonstrated on this forum. 'coonie is quite the master. I actually enjoy when he and fangz speak from the heart. I tried to do so here in my first two posts. Coon chimed in with a really nice view... I admit I take it a little personally all that critter stuff, and the atta girl form amy and you. Abortion politics is not my hill to die on. I am much much more restrained, like way more civil you could say out in the world, as I suspect others here are. I do not choose to argue or contradict those I interact with publicly, as I think it not worth while. This forum is an interesting space, in that, left and right so to speak can actually take their best shot, or ask a heartfelt question. You from my view, and Vampira obviously, have big axes to grind. It is silly to suggest that somehow only I do. I am quite capable to respond to polite conversation. Well, I do try. Simply lambasting men, or denying their healthy input when it comes to procreation gets us nowhere. If a woman hooks up with a complete jerk, and gets preggers, it is not somehow his doing, his irresponsibility. There are roles to play... I hope my children play them with forethought and good choices. If one of them get in a situation where they feel that abortion is the lesser of "evils", I will and do, see this as their life choice. I do not want a government overtly eliminating this liberty. I do think it is legitimate for folks to advocate for education, and reality information. Everybody decries their tax dollars going to causes they disagree with. This is legitimate. NPR, Planned Parenthood, WAR, whatever... Everybody on this forum has a style. you could call it a shtick or personality. Yours is a bit blocky but none the less opinionated and strident, from what little you have laid down here. I realize that there are differences in the way folks communicate or write. These stylization may make it difficult to read. Some like the giggler just take a pot shot now and then, with some supposed clever insinuation. Fangz will just link to a Krugman article. That's it. It is what it is...

Truly, I wish you and Fangz, and WiseOne, and 'coondog, Sam, AmyProbenski, Neckain'tRed, the Juggler, History4all, etc.
ALL THE BEST. HEALTH, HAPPINESS, LOVE and Joy in life. I bear no real ill will. I think it pathetic and just a LITTLE comic all the character assassination, right wing is this and that, christian bashing, snide lefty selective moral indignation stuff.

There is much joy in this life for me, and hopefully for you Loverockbridge...and there will be much pain and tragedy too.

That's LIFE...

crux

I like your moniker by the way... It is like LOVERockbridge... Emphasis on lover. 'Znice.

crux
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Re: Planned Parenthood or the A word...

Postby Amy Probenski » 2011 Jan 30 13:53

What's the first thing the loons from the tea party Republicans want to do?
Get government out of our personal lives?
Stop government interference in decisions between patient and doctor?
Boy, if you believe such foolishness, !

:thumdwn:

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Re: Planned Parenthood or the A word...

Postby fangz1956 » 2011 Jan 30 16:50

Amy...thanks ever so much for the link to the article. I think it's time for some letter writing to my Congressmen and Senators.

Crux..........we are not bitter nor are we carrying chips on our shoulders. Strident and serious as hell? YES!

Just for the record.........my personal experiences with men are what they are. I believe that each person crosses our path for a reason....and the reason is to learn some important life lesson. I also believe that ya have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince. There is no way in the world to fully appreciate a good man and a good relationship until you've experienced a bad one. To paraphrase Kahlil Gibran, our joys are as deep as the scars of our sorrows.

After reading the NYT article from Amy's post, I think every woman in her right mind should have an axe to grind with Congress and the Republican Party. What prejudicial claptrap!!!!!!! Peculiar critters???? You betcha!!!!!! Nothing but a narrow-minded, heartless jerk would even dare to contrive such outrageous legislation. The fact that is what Congress is planning just further proves my point about peculiar three legged critters.

Like it or not............they do not (and anybody agreeing with what they are planning) deserved to called any better than that. What a slap in the face to women everywhere.

:curse:

P.S. I rarely link to a Krugman article. My favorite writer amongst the bloggers is Glenn Greenwald of Salon.......a Constitutional attorney.
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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Re: Planned Parenthood or the A word...

Postby Coondog » 2011 Jan 30 17:16

Crux,

Please return to the excessive use of capital letters, italics, and bold ......... that single paragraph thing looks like some kind of Rorchach Test. I see a Butterfly.......taking obsene liberties with a Stink Bug.

See.....this is the problem with political parties, religions and bridge clubs. When you ally yourself too intricately with a system of beliefs, then try to extricate yourself from portions of that system, it comes off a bit sketchy. Hey, I'm good with the Pro-Life - Pro-Choice position, but it wouldn't pass muster with the Tea Party or the Republicans. You could be branded a liberal and a commie for saying stuff like that where they can hear you.

My only observation on the topic,itself, is that I don't think abortion is simply used as a convenient birth control measure by anyone. There are better options....but they have to be available and encouraged.


Coondog :tiphat:

“The doors we open and close each day decide the lives we live.”
Flora Whittemore

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To be expected...

Postby Crux » 2011 Jan 30 18:14

Look. I read the article. If you guys want the Feds OVERTLY involved in what should be private health insurance and a marketplace health care system, this is the stuff you will get. I said it before. Folks are ANTI FEDERAL SPENDING for a lot of things... The folks lobby their reps to pursue these things.

You guys use the government as a big stick. Then maybe you get hit. No mystery here. I am constant in voicing the idea that Government Health Care is no panacea. We give these guys control and that is what they will do. This issue of Federal funding, or not, is something you will have to deal with.

Every dem, just about thought it was such a great idea for the government to go all UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE. The private sector be damned. A private insurance company makes like 150$ a year on an individual plan, or maybe 350$ on a family plan. The new government plan will only DECREASE CHOICE and INCREASE COSTS. This is what you wanted... The march to the big social welfare enchilada...a single payer political football.

Good luck with it all.

crux
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Do not be surprised...

Postby Crux » 2011 Jan 30 20:28

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Re: Planned Parenthood or the A word...

Postby Coondog » 2011 Jan 31 11:32

crux,

Your post illustrates exactly what's wrong with the democrats and why we don't need republicans. The democratic party represents everything from a few radical liberals to a handful of middle of the road conservatives which pretty much represents the interests of almost all of America in a similar ratio as exhibited in the population. They don't agree on anything and have to barter and compromise among themselves to get anything half way done.

The republican party consists of a range from a few middle of the road conservatives to a handful right wing fanatics. But their policies do not even extend to cover middle of the road conservatism. They represent, fully and in lock step, that small, intransigent percentage of the population not covered by the Democrats.

Republicans are bold and united in disrupting initiatives of the opposition and completely unscrupulous when it comes to convincing people of the varacity of their arguments even in the face of observable contradiction. They renege blatently on compromise because it is not in their nature.

Democrats, being the paragons of timidity they are, abdicate their principles freely in the name of compromise, first among themselves, then with the republicans. It's like, no matter how many times you get bit...you keep putting your hand in the monkey cage. This is why resulting legislation is so unpalpable to all sides. Either the right prevails and no legislation is rendered (their goal whether in the majority or minority), or the left manages to eke out some wattered down half-measure that benefits nobody (about the extent of their capability).

My point is? We don't really need rebublicans. Without them, the legislature would be just as representative, but on a narrower scope. The few remaining radical leftists, who are about as numerous and effective as the New Black Panthers would still be irrevalent and we wouldn't have to have every issue contaminated by overrepresentation of evangelical right wing extremists. Something of value might actually get accomplished........or maybe not!

:hail: Coondog


An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile -- hoping it will eat him last.
Winston Churchill

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Sounds great...

Postby Crux » 2011 Jan 31 12:59

...but is ridiculous. I do not have the time to take you seriously.

I will just chalk that post up to 'coonism and let it go.

What silly analysis.

You know Who.
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Re: Planned Parenthood or the A word...

Postby Wise One » 2011 Jan 31 13:53

So take that, Coondog.

Such clarity of reason from a superior intellect so powerful as to be, well, unanswerable.

:craz:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."


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