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fangz1956
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LBGTQ

Postby fangz1956 » 2008 Nov 11 20:34

This is the most intelligent and eloquent commentary I've heard on this subject to date. This is a touchy subject with more folks than I can count.....and the church of my youth played a major role in this passage of this shameful legislation.

Is "racism" dead? NO!! It just has a new face and it's called ignorance, hate, hypocrisy, & fear.


:rant: :cry2:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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Wise One
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Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby Wise One » 2008 Nov 11 23:38

I saw this too - it is a wonderfully positive retort to the bigots.

In case you missed the link, here is the actual Olbermann Video.

:confused: Of course, bigots will not be persuaded. They never are. :confused:

PS. Here's a bonus video, with a very different take on this issue.

[youtube]d6Z1eQa2vlA[/youtube]
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Neck-aint-red
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Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2008 Nov 12 11:04

Those are really interesting. Thanks, guys and gals.

Here is another example of bigots at work, not caring who they hurt - even children - as they pursue narrow minded radicalism.

Frank Strickler

Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby Frank Strickler » 2008 Nov 12 13:41

Even though I live in California, I read this forum because I have roots in Rockbridge County. My Grandfather and his family lived in Walkers Creek. I spent a two week vacation in the Valley in late May and early June, and I can see why my ancestors loved it there.

I'd like to start by saying that I do not care what people do in their homes, or who they may be in love with, or even how they express their love. Those things are none of my business.
However I will not put my stamp of approval on their life style with my vote.
If any of you self appointed judges don't understand that I don 't have the inclination to explain it further. So you are welcome to call me any name you deem proper.

In California all gay people are intitled to all of the rights that married couples have without being married.

Frank Strickler

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Wise One
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Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby Wise One » 2008 Nov 12 14:27

With due respect, Frank, I think you have things quite backwards and upside down. Here's why:

Frank Strickler wrote:However I will not put my stamp of approval on their life style with my vote.
That is not what you were asked to do. You personally took an overt action and put a stamp of DIS-approval on a practice that was already legal in the state of California. In other words, you "do care what people do in their homes, who they may be in love with, and how they express their love."

By your vote you said "Stop! Those things are only for people I approve of and, just to make sure, here is my vote to make it illegal for you to do in the future something that I can do, marry, which right now is also legal for you. I will not tolerate that for you, only for me and people I approve of."

Frank Strickler wrote:In California all gay people are intitled to all of the rights that married couples have without being married.
I don't think you are correct in this statement, but I'll have to research it more completely.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

Frank Strickler

Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby Frank Strickler » 2008 Nov 12 15:28

With due respect "Wise One" I think you are the one who has things backwards and upside down.

My vote did not say stop to anyone's way of life.

A vote against Prop. 8 would amount to the same thing as an approval of a life style that I believe is wrong.

I will never tell anyone that they should live as I do, or to believe as I do. I served three years in the army so everyone in this country could decide for themselves where they would live, how they would live, and what they would believe. Including but not limited to gay people.

And to call people who voted for Prop. 8 Biggots is stretching a point.

Frank Strickler

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Wise One
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Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby Wise One » 2008 Nov 12 15:42

Frank, you are simply wrong.

Proposition 8 did not ask for you to approve of anybody's "life style", whatever that is. The entire text that you approved is exactly this:

"Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."


There is nary a word about "life style." This proposition had a single purpose, making marriages that were already legal in California, illegal in the future.

:craz: You voted to interfere in people's lives! :craz:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

Frank Strickler

Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby Frank Strickler » 2008 Nov 12 20:06

Well "Wise One" I guess you're just too smart to realize that to vote against that statement is condoning something I don't believe is right.
As far as I'm concerned, everyone else can do anything they like as long as I don't have to give their actions my stamp of approval. I don't speak against the actions of other people, and I didn't campagin for Prop 8. However I did vote my concience.
Since Gay's in California can still have a legal union with all the priviliges of marrage without being actually married I'm not really denying them a thing with my vote.

Frank Strickler

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fangz1956
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Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby fangz1956 » 2008 Nov 12 20:33

I know......let's take a vote on a new proposition or two:

1. Declare ALL marriages illegal and unconstitutional.(You know, I'll really don't wish to give my stamp of approval to someone's "lifestyle choice". Now that won't bother anybody or interfere with their lives, will it?)

2. Declare religious participation (i.e. money from "non-profit" religious institutions and churches) in politics illegal. Violation of such is punishable by fines, imprisonment, and LOSS OF TAX-EXEMPT STATUS.


:banghead:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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Wise One
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Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby Wise One » 2008 Nov 12 21:27

Fangz, I am with you on these.

  • On your first point, here's the clearest thinking I've found. Government and religion have got all mixed up together in confusing and counterproductive ways. So, government should cease recognizing "marriage" for legal purposes, and should recognize only "civil unions."
    But wait. Feelings on some matters (that are no business of government) run hot. So, "marriage" ceremonies would still be performed, only by non-government institutions, churches for example, for anybody who feels strongly about these things. Marriages can include many beliefs, practices, constraints, and commitments, even strange ones, but would be unenforceable by government.
  • My position on tax exemptions is simpler than yours. I am against all tax exemptions. Period. Every person and every organization should be treated the same under our tax laws. It's fair.
:encore: I am happy to have solved these two problems for everybody. Next? :encore:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

Peter

Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby Peter » 2008 Nov 13 01:27

If it is true that God granted Human Beings the blessing of Free Will, then I submit that it is not the prerogative of Man to limit or deny any Human Being that very Free Will ordained by God, on any matter pertaining to their Life whatsoever. Evidently, the Bigots of California, many supported by their churches, feel that Free Will is just fine - as long as it pertains to things THEY believe in.

Inevitably, the rights and benefits of such a sacred Union as marriage will be extended to all couples, not just those of the majority. Human Beings are intended to live their lives upon the Earth free to explore, love, learn, and grow, each according to their own specific need. It is not for anyone other than Self to determine one's own path and array of Earthly experiences. This is an immutable Truth.

The very reason that the United States Constitution guarantees Freedom of - or Freedom FROM - religion is to prevent any majority, prevalent in any decade or generation or century, from imposing its will upon any minority - or even one single Human Being. So profound and great is our Constitution, that the inalienable rights of even one solitary individual are protected from the crushing force of a different-minded majority.

It was the majority of the moment on Good Friday that called for and caused the violent execution of Jesus the Christ. What does that tell us about the nature of certain "majorities"?

The Great Master Jesus never once taught that homosexuality or any other manner of being is unworthy of God's love. If this were true, Master Jesus would have definitely spoken on and taught to this subject.

Master Jesus did, however, speak much about Human Beings judging one another, harming one another, lying to one another, and disregarding the essential Divinity of one another. I have been a citizen of Earth for nearly 56 years, and am quite familiar with Jesus' teachings, as well as those of the Buddha, many great Hindu prophets and sages, and others.

Not one of these divine Messengers has ever stated in the consummate totality of their teachings that Love between two Human Beings must follow a particular formula. Rather, they speak of the need for Unconditional Love, Tolerance, and for Human Beings - ALL Human Beings - to be true to Who They Are, and to always show Acceptance of and Love for their fellow Man. There is never an asterisk after any great platitudes that requires or limits such Love and Tolerance to only be shown to the "majority" segment of society.

There is no disclaimer on the Sermon on the Mount that says:

** "The preceding Sermon was intended for certain members of Humanity only: homosexuals are excluded from the groups for which this sermon was delivered and intended."

How preposterous such a statement would be!

Bigotry, no matter what its form - yesterday against women, Jews, and blacks, today against gays - and no matter how well-intentioned or cloaked in self-delusion, is based solely upon Fear, which is the absence of Love. Fear is what drives any majority to discriminate against any minority. Where there is Fear, there cannot be Love, and where there is Love, there can never be Fear.

What does any heterosexual have to Fear from any homosexual? Not one thing. Both are the children of the same God, and both have something to learn from - and share with - the other. I've been around quite a while, and I see that homosexuals have far more to fear from heterosexuals than the reverse. All too often, they have been the victims of sexual Bigotry and raging unkindness on the part of the majority who, due to Fear - and only Fear - sought to act against them in many ways, often by using religion or false piety as the cloak to hide behind.

All of us are interact with homosexuals each and every day of our lives, and we have since birth. We simply do not know it, because, even today - and with good reason - most choose to not share all of Who They Are with all of Who We Are. If California’s recent vote for Public Bigotry is representative of how they would be treated if they did, then they are smart - very smart indeed.

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Coondog
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Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby Coondog » 2008 Nov 13 14:33

Well....if you must interject religion into the functionality of government....and, if we are to
embrace the right wing conservative fundamentalist view, then we must.

I admit to being confounded by the evangelical stance on issues of governance and reverence
to God in all of his/her manifestations from both Old and New Testements. How, we might
ask, does one profess to adhere to the teachings of Jesus, yet expound vehemently against
any form of perceived 'socialism', welfare, assistance or recognition toward anyone of lesser
means and capabilities?

How, we may also inquire, can one be profoundly anti-abortion (after all, who isn't?), yet rail
against contraceptives, planned parenthood, sex education of any kind, then deny
responsibility for the life professed to be infinitely sacred until after it is born into the world?

When it comes to Proposition 8 and the principles concerned, I must admit to being neutral
on the matter from a social perspective. Coondog is straight! But, I don't much care what
consenting adults want to do as far as personal sexual gratification goes.....although some
things need not be publicly displayed, regardless of persuasion or tendency. Suffice to say,
whatever you do in the privacy of your home with your partner, best friend or pet is none of my
business. When it comes to constitutional rights, any good evangelical conservative will tell you
that it means, strictly, what it says (subject to their unique interpretation).

Why the mormons, from their own kinky perspective, are so actively concerned is anybody's
guess.

Coondog :joker:

I now pronounce you....... people!

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fangz1956
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Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby fangz1956 » 2008 Nov 13 17:50

The Mormon church has apparently been waging this particular war since 1997. Official letters outlining the plan have come to the surface. The most recent letter gave details of alliance with the Roman Catholic church as way to keep the Mormons from "being out front" on this thing. I turned up a clip of an interview that Larry King did with the late Gordon Hinckley (one time president and prophet of the church). Hinckley's words were "we believe these people have a problem and we want to help them". "These people" to whom he refers are the gays......their problem is their homosexuality....and the solution is what???? Is it stripping them of their rights in an effort to bring them to their knees and correct the "error" of their ways??

Between trolling through pieces in The Daily Dish and a letter in Salon, I discovered that the church coerced and guilted its membership into donating at LEAST $15 million to achieve this biggoted and hate-based end. The church has undertaken similar measures in Hawaii and Florida. Makes me wonder how much of their hand is in the issue in Arkansas.

And Wise One, you're right. There should be no tax-exempt status....period. I could write a book on the church and its twisted, biggoted view of the world and all of the people in it. After all, I grew up in that church and I remember when blacks were barred from holding the Priesthood (they were finally granted that right 10 years AFTER the Civil Rights movement). This is a church whose own sacred writings say that white people are pure and dark-skinned people are evil sinners. Back in the early days (and some folks likely still believe this) it was believed that upon conversion, baptism, and the washing away of their sins, these black skinned folk would turn white. Hmmmm......does that mean that baptism and conversion will turn homosexuals into heterosexuals??? My best guess is Yes......that is the illogical twisted logic of the church.

:cry2:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

resigned

Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby resigned » 2008 Nov 14 13:34

If you folks could just put aside your remarks regarding bigotry it might be helpful to understand the extent of medical problems among the homosexual population, which are associated with homosexual activity. Homosexuality still remains today the major source for contacting the HIV virus. A young male homosexual has about a fifty percent chance of contacting the HIV virus by middle age. There are also large numbers of anal cancer, syphilis, gay bowel syndrome and hepatitis to name a few. As a social worker at a large psychiatric hospital we received a number of psychotic homosexuals who had many severe medical problems associated with the homosexual activities that I wouldn’t care to get into here. So this problem is bigger than whether people are bigots but a major health issue.

Homosexuality is a dangerous risk to society. There were rules in the Old Testament, which were created by the Jews for health reasons, for example don’t eat pork etc.

And for those who say there is nothing in the Bible about homosexuality I have enclosed the following.

Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body” (1 Corinthians 6:18).

He prescribed one man for one woman for life (Genesis 2:24). He insists that “because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband” (1 Corinthians 7:2).

You all rail against those who are against homosexuality, but don’t try to understand where they are coming from. Many people including myself were raised in very conservative households. To accept something such as homosexuality or living together without the benefits of marriage are totally foreign to us. I don’t hate the homosexual but rather have compassion for them because I know first hand their life style is not always one of gaiety or enjoyment. I truly understand the torment some go through. But they need to regulate themselves in order to control the many diseases associated with their practices. Of course the gay bathhouses are a great place for spreading disease.

I wasn’t going to come back, but felt the importance of providing a balance to what is posted here. And I would ask that you all not pounce on me. I was taught as a family therapist that in order to take away a person’s defense mechanism you had to be able to help them replace it with another. Hope this makes some sense.

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fangz1956
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Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby fangz1956 » 2008 Nov 14 17:16

HIV/AIDS isn't just a "gay thing"...and hasn't been for a long time. The fastest rising number of new cases appears to be occurring among HETEROSEXUAL WOMEN. Yes...............you read that correctly. For a nice detail of the specifics and factual information, please go here: http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveilla ... dsexposure.
(This website also includes information on how to interpret and understand the CDC data). They have put together a great piece of work aimed at providing all of the facts and debunking the myths, rumors, and misinformation that folks still like to spread around.

In August 2008, the CDC wrote:
Early in the epidemic, HIV infection and AIDS were diagnosed for relatively few women and female adolescents (although we know now that many women were infected with HIV through injection drug use but that their infections were not diagnosed) [1]. Today, women account for more than one quarter of all new HIV/AIDS diagnoses. Women of color are especially affected by HIV infection and AIDS. In 2004 (the most recent year for which data are available), HIV infection was

the leading cause of death for black women (including African American women) aged 25–34 years.
the 3rd leading cause of death for black women aged 35–44 years.
the 4th leading cause of death for black women aged 45–54 years.
the 4th leading cause of death for Hispanic women aged 35–44 years.

In the same year, HIV infection was the 5th leading cause of death among all women aged 35–44 years and the 6th leading cause of death among all women aged 25–34 years. The only diseases causing more deaths of women were cancer and heart disease


As for us not understanding from where the religious faction is coming, I think Peter said it all quite clearly. Jesus himself never spoke of homosexuality or preached against it. The Bible was written by MEN. Oh my, what a shocker. I do think and believe that if religious institutions focused more on the words written in red, rather than one the ones written in black, the world might be a different and better place. And, I most certainly understand the motives of the Mormon Church, the Catholic Church and all the rest of the "churches". Their motive is to legislate THEIR brand of morality and social acceptability. Religion in this coutry has become so hypocritical that it makes me sick. Preach love and practice hate. Talk tolerance and pratice bigotry. Spend countless hours of time, energy, and money to marginalize and persecute segments of society that they obviously fear. How nice that these "fine" folks have decided that they can be the final judge of their fellow man................their neighbor. I'm sure God is smiling down on each one of these fine folks and saying "job well done"............................NOT!!!

I do not believe that organized religion can sink much lower on the humanity scale than they have already done.

Hmmmm....................wasn't it Jesus who said: Love thy neighbor as thyself? Maybe the the 'churches" need to take a good hard look at that one and figure out who your neighbor really is. We all came from the same Creator...whomever each individual believes that to be. In the Grand Design, everything has a reason and purpose. I believe that the way society was designed was done so in a way to teach us how to love unconditionally and treat each person....gay, straight, black, red, yellow, educated, illiterate, rich, poor (and even coondogs).....with dignity.

If one really understands and practices to the best of their ability "Love thy neigbor as thyself" then there would be no need for endless wars or Proposition 8.

:wink2:

Organized religion is Big Business......big political business
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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nudgewink
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Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby nudgewink » 2008 Nov 14 23:19

Does anybody see what I am seeing? That Sweetness and Beckon are cut from the same bolt of cloth?

One is pressed a little more neatly than the other, but the shape of the garment is about the same in both cases. Bigots? You decide for yourself, but their own words seem to remove all doubt.

:thumbup: But I rubberneck when passing car wrecks, so I say to both of you -- keep it up! :thumbup:

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Wise One
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Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby Wise One » 2008 Nov 15 09:54

I don't know about that, but here is something that tickled me as exceptionally ironic.

Certain Mormon marriage practices are well-known and have been the subject of more than a little controversy over the years. So I boggle to see them now imposing marriage intolerance on others.

:wink2: But maybe it should be be excused as "turn-about is fair play"!?!?
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

Frank Strickler

Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby Frank Strickler » 2008 Nov 16 13:05

Because so much has been writen about religion on this subject I'm going to put in my two cents worth.

To begin with I'm a bible beliveing Christian.

The bible is clear on this. All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God, and the wages of sin is death. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Mankind was given this out. Christ shed his blood and paid the price of death on the cross for all who would believe on him.

The bible is also clear on this point. A christian is not to judge the world, God has already judged it. A christian is only to tell the world it is condemed, but God has given his only son to redeem us.

Now to the subject at hand.

To know what Jesus had to say about marrage please read Mathew chapter 19. and Mark chapter 10.

To know why I voted for Prop 8 read the first chapter of Romans. Read the last verse several times until you understand it.

Frank Strickler

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Wise One
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Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby Wise One » 2008 Nov 16 13:48

I'm a common-sense believing human who realizes that you can find lines in the bible for or against nearly anything. Which is why my knowledge and the basis of my opinions rest on a variety of sources.

Believe what you will, Frank, even if what you write seems gibberish to me. I read your bible references, which are interesting but mostly not especially relevant to the subject at hand.

Well, except for line 27 in Romans which suggests only that Paul was a homophobe. He's entitled to his opinion, but I don't share it.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

Frank Strickler

Re: Prejudice & Proposition 8

Postby Frank Strickler » 2008 Nov 16 17:31

Well "Wise One" Maybe you should have someone read it to you. Pick someone with at least a third grade level of comprehension.

Frank Strickler