Taxes Too High? Think again...

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Crux
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Hey Red, Slow down Looter/Moocher...

Postby Crux » 2011 Apr 23 18:12

Three points.

Firstly I would argue that the poor in this country can thank the rich for their largess, both for the jobs, philanthropy and taxes which are redistributed to the benefit of the poor. The poor would be in a real pickle if not for the rich. Given their circumstances, whether happenstance, or self-imposed, they rightfully should be grateful...


2. This is a great story, or metaphor, but is not quite analogous. Please consider this chart which shows what the ACTUAL tax rates are that are ACTUALLY paid in this country, on average, by different income groups... It is instructive. The RIIIICHH that you love to loot and denigrate, are paying far and away more than ONE PERCENT taxes, you will acknowledge, RIGHT?

You may also know, contrary to the non-analogy, that when you include the EITC there are more than 50% of folks in this country that not only do not PAY taxes, actually RECEIVE MUCH MONIES through redistribution, thank goodness, RIGHT??

Also note the average tax rates for the top 5%, 25%, etc...

3. Democrats talk a great game, and just love to seek the free ride, at both ends.
When poor or really not so poor, they look for the handouts... Look at Obama this last week who said his mother, while pursuing a PHD for cripes sake, TOOK FOOD STAMPS! Now, HER folks, Barry's Grandparents, were pretty damn well off. Grandma was a bank Vice President at one of Hawaii's biggest banks, and He was an Executive for an Oil Company. Barry was living with the Grands, and attending an expensive Prep School. Now, why was Leftist Mom, pursuing a FREAKING PHD on FREAKING FOOD STAMPS!!??

Neck at some point you have to really get a little critical here Friend!! Leftist Democrats love freebies, and free rides both on the low end AND ON THE HIGH END!! She got FOOD STAMPS, while pursuing a PHD!! This is SHAMEFUL... :sigh:

On the HIGH END, Dems moan on about the RICH not paying their fair share. Well guess what. There are loads of well to do guilt ridden Democrats who pay their beloved Federal Government AS LITTLE TAX AS THEY MUST, all the while, out of SHAME I suppose, cry out that "TAXES MUST BE RAISED"!! This is the line anyway...

They seek to escape taxes, clamor that taxes be raised, and all the while they could just PAY MORE IF THEY WISHED!

Convoluted yes. Democrats? Yes, how about that... :hum:

So perhaps the glutton, and the plunderer are one in the same...
:evil:

CRUX
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Neck-aint-red
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2011 Apr 25 09:55

I am finally beginning to see your point, folks. I posted an interesting hypothetical about what fairness means in such a case, evenhandedly offering possibilities that might favor A, B, or C, take your choice.

As always, there is no thoughtful response. There is no evidence that my posting was read. There is only a repeat of the same old invective and parroted ideology in yet another monologue from crux.

I dearly love to rubberneck disasters but that foe filter is looking more and more attractive. Maybe some disasters are too horrific even for me.

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Crux
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You have got to be kidding...

Postby Crux » 2011 Apr 25 10:32

Yes you posted a hypothetical. I read it three times at least. I responded to your HYPOTHETICAL and have given you the FACTS regarding income tax, percentages paid on average, etc. You come back with this juvenile criticism? Keep living in the hypothetical, envying and bashing the productive class, and look in the mirror... :thumbup:

Are the numbers on the charts I gave you invective? The top .01, 1, and 5, 10 and 25% pay what they pay...

I will ask you another question, well two: What income level qualifies one as a top 1%er, and what percentage of the tax load do they pay? I want to see you type the TRUTH, not a hypothetical.... Deal with what is. :geek:

You Neck are a piker, compared to 'dog and AO. Dream on and dream the dream of moochers and looters. I love a country and a capitalistic system where folks are free in their opportunity to rise as far as their DRIVE and ABILITY can take them.

Let us just see my bluster-filled-friend if you will actually acknowledge the truth. :shakeh: To date no one of your buds here has actually acknowledged the facts. Sidestepped yes. Obfuscated yes. Let's see if you can man up Neck:

What income level qualifies one as a top 1%er, and what percentage of the Total Federal Income Tax load do they actually pay?

(...will you deign to ding your misconception? The hypothetical 1% kicked in by the top 1% is NOT analogous... :baby: )

crux ...instead of answering and acknowledging the truth, you could wimp out and hit the foe button... JUVI!
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Wise One
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Wise One » 2011 Apr 27 11:32

A. Your "facts" are incorrect.
B. You lack a rudimentary understanding of arithmetic.
C. Your narrow mind bars facts and reason from intruding on ideology.

I no longer play your silly game. Neck-ain't-red can if he likes but he would be on a fool's errand.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Crux
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There you go again running away...

Postby Crux » 2011 Apr 27 12:24

...from reality.

I would love to see you, or neck, tell me what the facts are:

"What income level qualifies one as a top 1%er, and what percentage of the Total Federal Income Tax load do they actually pay?"

Why, an inquiring mind might wish to know, will neither of you dig this fact out of the ground and state it? Why, if you know the answer will you not type it out, to enshrine it here? Is it troubling to admit?

crux
:coffee:

(...now nudge, are you still paying attention? Have you ever? Your alarm bells didn't go off when AO wouldn't identify what sources of info he would use to calculate what I gave him? Did you follow us on AO's dream tax "value added" tax plan? How about the exchange we had on the FairTax? You do not recognize his game...? You do not see that he AVOIDS the fact that the top 1% pays 40% of the tax, or the way he says this is not as significant as what their RATE is? How about when I provide the facts of what not only the % they pay but what their AVERAGE tax IS?)

Nudge wouldn't you like to see him or neck admit what the answer to what the FACTS are, not harp about what my ideal hypothetical tax fix might BE?)
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

Roundtop

Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Roundtop » 2011 Apr 27 13:55

And, apparently the facts are:
According the the National Taxpayers Union website (http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/who-pays- ... taxes.html), in 2008 the top 1% of income earners earned an average of $380,000 Adjusted Gross Income (AGI) and paid 38% of all income taxes.
According to the Tax Foundation website (http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html), the top 1% earned 20% of all income and paid 38% of all income taxes, both lower figures than than the previous several years due to the recession. The top 1% had an average tax rate of 23.3% compared to the average for all (with positive tax liabilities) of 12.2%.
The table on the Taxpayers Union website shows the widely varying average tax rates by income level. For example, the top 50% have an average tax rate of 13.7%. Meanwhile, the top 5-10%, which account for 11% of all income pay just over 12.4%. If I've used my calculator correctly, the top 50% had an average AGI of about $105,000 and the top 5-10% had and average AGI of $133,000.
It is widely known that a substantial amount of income is never reported and is therefore not taxed at all. Based on my experience, this is a substantial abuse.

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Crux
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DING DING DING !!!

Postby Crux » 2011 Apr 27 20:26

WE HAVE A WINNER!!! ...thanks RT. :thumbup:

c...
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Wise One
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Wise One » 2011 Apr 27 23:35

Roundtop, it is a fact that the numbers you cite appear in the article.
The significance of those numbers, how they relate to income and tax realities, is grossly and widely misrepresented.
I hope to get back to you soon with a detailed explanation.
I read between the lines of your posting that you appear to be a person who is willing to go where the facts and reason take you, unhappily not the case for all participants here.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Crux
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Too funny...

Postby Crux » 2011 Apr 29 13:49

No AO, they appear in REALITY. We all will await you to TELL US just "how they RELATE"... :lol: ...or NOT. :thumbup:

crux

They RELATE a truth my friend. If you work hard and achieve success to the tune of 380,000 in AGI, you have the tax obligation to be one, of ONE HUNDRED tax filers, who foot @40% of the total tax bill. All the rest is self evident as well...

...your mental gymnastics aside. :coffee:
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Sam
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Sam » 2011 May 05 07:05

That is, the facts and reason ole Wise guy cites. Come on Pal, its known that articles posted here must pass your approval. But I got to tell you there are other sources out there that are on target be they left or right or just plain in the center. It seems Round top may be unwilling to post anymore for fear of being castigated. I know I am willing to go where the facts and reason take me but they aren't always on your approved reading list.
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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Crux
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On gasoline and BIG OIL

Postby Crux » 2011 May 05 18:15

I find it SICK when the LEFT decries BIG OIL and their PERKS and PROFITS. We know that BIG OIL makes about 8 CENTS per gallon in profit. Now I assume that's NET profit. Look ant this chart that shows the TAXES you are paying dejpending which state you live in...

http://www.api.org/statistics/fueltaxes ... 0pages.pdf

AHEM. 8 CENTS per gallon for the PRODUCER, and WAY WAY more for the REDISTRIBUTIONISTIC LOOTER STATE.

...worth a look. It just gets wackier too. So we go to more FUEL EFFICIENT cars and guess what? The Federal Government and State Government isn't getting enough TAX MONEY on GASOLINE, so they both are pursuing a MILEAGE TAX!!!! You soon may be obligated to pay a TAX for every MILE you drive!!!

OH...and if you buy a Hybrid Electric Vehicle, or a VOLT, you may have to pay a FEE every year for WEAR AND TEAR on the ROADS, because you ARE NOT paying GASOLINE TAX...

This is the insatiable DEMOCRAT WAY.
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Coondog
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Coondog » 2011 May 06 13:32

So, what's your point? That gasoline for vehicles is taxed to pay for the roads we drive them on? Duh! What a revelation!

I will not dispute the 8 cents profit per gallon. I don't know! But, you're talking PROFIT! Not how much they make! Oil supplies are NOT low, so it's not a matter of supply and demand. Consider this: If oil companies make 8 cents profit per gallon - and that factor is stable, the record profits they are reporting are not matched by a similar increase in oil CONSUMPTION.

So....where is all this profit coming from?

Coondog :hum:

Fuzzy Math....the insatiable REPUBLICAN WAY!

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Crux
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Scratching my head...

Postby Crux » 2011 May 06 15:37

coondog wrote:So, what's your point? That gasoline for vehicles is taxed to pay for the roads we drive them on? Duh! What a revelation!

I will not dispute the 8 cents profit per gallon. I don't know! But, you're talking PROFIT! Not how much they make! Oil supplies are NOT low, so it's not a matter of supply and demand. Consider this: If oil companies make 8 cents profit per gallon - and that factor is stable, the record profits they are reporting are not matched by a similar increase in oil CONSUMPTION.

So....where is all this profit coming from?

Coondog :hum:

Fuzzy Math....the insatiable REPUBLICAN WAY!


My point is that LIBS grumble about OIL profits, when the GOVERNMENT garners greater "profit" as TAXES from that same oil! I know profit is a dirty word but CHEEZZE and CRRACKERS! No profit, no gas. Making 8 cents on a gallon may equal billions in profits. SO WHAT. I am a capitalist and a REALIST. The Sierra Club and the GOVERNMENT ain't gonna drill, extract and refine the gas we use... Now. What do you mean CONSUMPTION isn't up. It is only TRENDING UP!!

c...
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Neck-aint-red
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2011 May 07 21:12

There are several reasons for the US deficit, the gap between expenditures and revenue.

This is one of them. Our total tax load has declined about 14% from its value in the year 2000. We have one of the lowest tax rates among western countries, and it is declining.

Image

Click on the graph for the article.

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Crux
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This graph shows...

Postby Crux » 2011 May 08 07:53

...that you are a tool of the Looter/Moocher State.

!

Neck. Have you looked into the TAX RECEIPTS of our NANNY, vs. the OUTLAYS in spending say for the last 20 years?
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

ParkerLongbaugh

Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby ParkerLongbaugh » 2011 May 09 08:58

Hardly surprising, but looking at averages isn't that useful when our current tax policy has nearly half our population not paying any income tax at all. That percentage has grown and grown, and one cannot discount its impact on an average tax burden calculation. The article doesn't even mention that at all...

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Crux
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OOOO...OUCH!!!

Postby Crux » 2011 May 09 13:37

Boy is my Neck sore and Red...

ParkerLongbaugh wrote:
Neck-aint-red wrote:This is one of them. Our total tax load has declined about 14% from its value in the year 2000. We have one of the lowest tax rates among western countries, and it is declining.


Hardly surprising, but looking at averages isn't that useful when our current tax policy has nearly half our population not paying any income tax at all. That percentage has grown and grown, and one cannot discount its impact on an average tax burden calculation. The article doesn't even mention that at all...
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Coondog
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Coondog » 2011 May 09 16:45

I presume you guys know whether it's 1/2 of actual wage earning or tax filing people who don't pay taxes or if you're counting corporations (fractional people), people who make absolutely nothing, or some combination of the above.

So,,,I don't know whether some or any of the 50% includes Exxon Mobile, GE or portions of the top 2% who have well paid accountants. But I will concede that the majority of "people" among those 50% who don't pay taxes don't pay taxes because they don't make enough to have to pay taxes.

That's pretty pathetic in what is supposed to be the greatest country on earth. Even more pathetic is that it is not the people who make so little they don't pay any taxes that anyone is concerned about, but the mulit-billion dollar corperations and billionaires who haven't yet figured out how not to pay any taxes. Must we continually look out for them? Should we keep lowering their tax rate or subsidise some better accountants for them until they are free of the overwhelming tax burdon that has kept them in 2 figure billions in profits as opposed to 3 figure billions?

How long before so many people make so much and so many make so little that nobody pays any taxes?

I guess if we put the country on a blood standard (as opposed to a gold standard or a worthless paper standard) we could manage to drain the perverbial last drop out of the poor. Then maybe we could stop worrying about taxes....or poor people and start wondering which corporation, out of the goodness of their still pumping hearts, is going to pay to fix roads, bridges and, yes, fund all wars present and future!

Coondog :dontknow:

I paid more taxes than GE and Exxon combined and I'm not snivelling about it!!!!!!!

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Crux
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'dog....

Postby Crux » 2011 May 09 20:32

We are talking about the Federal (personal) Income Tax. One percent of the folks pay more than the bottom 95%. We are not talking about Corporate Tax. Guess what though... Those Millions who work for your much maligned Corporations pay INCOME tax.
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

ParkerLongbaugh

Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby ParkerLongbaugh » 2011 May 10 10:08

coondog wrote:...So,,,I don't know whether some or any of the 50% includes Exxon Mobile, GE or portions of the top 2% who have well paid accountants. But I will concede that the majority of "people" among those 50% who don't pay taxes don't pay taxes because they don't make enough to have to pay taxes...


Corporate taxes and income taxes are simply a political tool now, not a revenue one. The recent no-tax deal with GE is despicable, and a prime example of that. A FairTax that fixed both problems would be welcomed by many of us, I wager.

But the example I was referring to is indeed personal income tax, and a whole lot of folks who aren't poor don't pay any at all, or even worse get a check from their neighbors. That's not due to poverty- it's due to socially-engineered policies that are bad for the country.

Is a family with two kids and $50,000 of income poor? I would think not, and I suspect most of us would agree on that.

Last filing, that family was entitled to a standard deduction of $11,400 and four personal exemptions of $3,650 apiece, leaving a taxable income of $24,000. The federal income tax on $24,000 is $2,769. With two children, the family qualified for two $1,000 child tax credits. Its Making Work Pay credit was $800 because the parents were married filing jointly.

The $2,800 in credits exceeds the $2,769 in taxes, so the family makes a $31 profit from the federal income tax. And that is without using the mortgage deduction or any of the other larger spiffs many folks use!

Is $50,000 the level of not making enough to pay any taxes, and even to get money from other taxpayers? No it is not, and the policies that allow that are disgusting. The real numbers aren't good talking points in support of class warfare though, so most don't realize how badly out of whack our policies are AT EVERY LEVEL. We are enabling a nation of moochers and a mentality of "what can I get?", and it spells doom for all of us.