Taxes Too High? Think again...

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Wise One
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Re: Sheesh...

Postby Wise One » 2011 Apr 21 22:23

crux wrote:Please provide me with a link to the "real US income distribution date" you would use to compute percentages of contributed revenue...

I don't know yet, not wanting to waste time on a wild goose chase before having your ideal tax schedule in hand. I'll search for the most up to date information I can find, first from standard federal government statistical sources and then, if necessary to fill gaps, from other sources. I'll identify all references.
PS. Don't forget to specify if you would allow personal exemptions and if so what their dollar amount would be. Also, if you would allow or disallow the many other deductions and tax preferences embedded in our present highly complex tax law.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Crux
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OK

Postby Crux » 2011 Apr 21 23:16

Wise One wrote:
crux wrote:Please provide me with a link to the "real US income distribution date" you would use to compute percentages of contributed revenue...

I don't know yet, not wanting to waste time on a wild goose chase before having your ideal tax schedule in hand.


Try thisand use what I already gave you...

SHEESH.
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Wise One
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Wise One » 2011 Apr 22 00:14

I still do not understand. Please pick one these 4 different tax schedules, the one you think is most fair. I will use the one you pick.
How about those who make between the poverty level, and 33,000 pay something like 5%. 34k to 76K 10%, 77K to 150K 20%, 151K to 300K 25% and over 301K 30%...

Or the Fair Tax. No deductions...

How about all incomes to 33K pay 5%. 34K to 70K 10%. 71K to 150K 15%. 151K to 300K 20%. 301K and above 25%...

Or, all up to 70K pay 10%, 71K to 200K 20%, and 201K up pay 30%...

No deductions for ANYONE. Let everyone have the Federal STATE give them an ENHANCED TAX-DOWN!!

I understand, no deductions. To be clear, no personal exemptions at all, for the babies, etc.? That would be quite different from the Fair Tax.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Sam
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Sam » 2011 Apr 22 07:10

nudgewink wrote:Sam, I'm an unbiased and disinterested observer on this but I read over all the back and forth.
It does not look like "intolerance" to me.
Those guys just asked Crux for a straight answer to a simple question.
Why he refuses is baffling.
To be annoyed at rudeness is not exactly the same thing as intolerance.


I appreciate your posting, but after reading all of the postings over the past months, man I gotta say there is some real intolerance going on here. To refer to someone as a reptile sort of makes my old bones recoil just to name a few. I don't see Crux as refusing to provide a answer he has. It just doesn't seem to be the one Wise Guy is looking for. At least that is my take on this whole shebang. Annoyance is one thing, but rudeness and name calling is another. But if you read back over the forum, names acceptable are stick your finger down your throat, bastard, "you can take your BS clap trap and stick it where the sun don't shine" or "go suck your thumb" These are acceptable. I gotta change my vocabulary in order to be on this forum I see.
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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fangz1956
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby fangz1956 » 2011 Apr 22 07:32

Sam wrote:
But if you read back over the forum, names acceptable are stick your finger down your throat, bastard, "you can take your BS clap trap and stick it where the sun don't shine" or "go suck your thumb"


These are not name-calling per se......except for the term "bastard". But even that is not profane...e.g. "bastard child". The rest of that list are nothing but honest opinions of another person's unsubstantiated opinions and rantings. There is a tremendous difference between bashing a person and bashing their opinions.


:toothy:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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Crux
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I'll pick door number 5...

Postby Crux » 2011 Apr 22 08:53

...the federal government can not take more than 10% of any persons income, in a given year...

This sounds about right.
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Wise One
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Wise One » 2011 Apr 22 11:40

I still do not understand. It appears that you have added a fifth possible tax schedule.
Will you simply pick one tax schedule, the one you believe to be the best and fairest?
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Neck-aint-red
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2011 Apr 22 12:11

Give it up, Wise One.
That guy is Lucy, always yanking the football away at the last moment.
Crux will never state a position of his own or take accountability for anything.
His purpose in life is to criticize and demean others.
But I admire your persistence and civility!

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Sam
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Sam » 2011 Apr 22 14:57

Hey Crux or Lucy we need to meet and toss a few back you are doing great
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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Neck-aint-red
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2011 Apr 22 15:52

Sam, I am curious.
You seem otherwise to be a pretty reasonable fellow.
So I am interested why you seem to admire Crux's obstinate refusal to answer a simple question?
I can make no sense of it.

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Crux
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Double standard...false premise. YA THINK?

Postby Crux » 2011 Apr 22 16:08

Where's the discernment? I have answered the question quite well for you to get the feel of where I am coming from and then some... I have asked questions that go unanswered. AO will not disclose the measures by which he will "calculate". Further, he will not comment upon the charts I asked if he might consult... Besides, there are MANY tax issues in play. Corporate tax, capital gains, etc. We would all be better off with a greatly simplified system. I have said I like the Fairtax, which AO just boo-hoos. I have suggested some percentages for income tax schemes which would be far simpler. Was it only number 5? I like a 10% MAX tax on say, all income, WHATEVER THAT would look like.

Here is another, call it number 6, although, income tax is not perhaps as good as a consumption tax...

5% tax on all incomes from poverty level to 75K, 10% on 76K-276K, and 15% on 277K and above...


SHRINK the Federal Government and take the power back to the State and local level where we have a greater control over our SO_CALLED representatives. You guys are really something as we have Gold at 1500$, GAS heading for 5$/gallon, food up 10% in the last 35 days, on top of the increases of the PREVIOUS 70 days, and you gain such pleasure in glad handing AO in a completely uncritical way. :hum:

"Crux will never state a position of his own or take accountability for anything.
His purpose in life is to criticize and demean others.
But I admire your persistence and civility!", says Neck... THERE YOU GO. This is a fine example of both DOUBLE STANDARD, and FALSE PREMISE.

Hey Red, and NUDGE, just curious:

1. Do you think that it is a fair share of the tax burden that 1% of tax filers pay 40% of taxes collected?
2. Do you think it is a FAIR SHARE that 10% of tax filers pay 70% of taxes collected?
3. Do you think the bottom 50% actually RECEIVING money in aggregate from taxpayers through redistribution is fair?

You know I think it odd you and others just pile on, attack, and accuse SO, when not only have I more than answered AO about WHAT MIGHT BE... When he and YOU ALL for that matter might confront, WHAT IS, and answer my queries, at least as well as I have answered AO's...

He has even indicated that I DID answer, albeit in 5, now 6 different options that accomplish better than what IS....

LUCY :gun2:
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Wise One
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Wise One » 2011 Apr 22 16:21

So now it is up to a possible 6 quite different tax schedules.
It is crystal clear you will never commit to a defined tax schedule as fair.
Therefore its revenue distribution consequences can never be assessed.
Your only interest is complaining about everything and everybody.
It's tiresome and I'm done.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Sam
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Sam » 2011 Apr 22 17:43

Neck-aint-red wrote:Sam, I am curious.
You seem otherwise to be a pretty reasonable fellow.
So I am interested why you seem to admire Crux's obstinate refusal to answer a simple question?
I can make no sense of it.


Ok my fine Fellow first of all I would ask is there a rule we all have to answer any question posted on the forum? I know I haven't always because I didn't feel the need. Where does Crux not answer a question, facts here my fine friend, and are you basing your decision on what Wise Guy reports? Just curious. I find the whole tenor of the forum has changed since Crux joined. It was definitely a left leaning forum and he has raised the level of discussion to one that has been very interesting. I for one have researched alot of the back and forths between Crux and his foes and have gleaned lots of information.

Whether he answers a question is his business not mine, but back to your statment that I am pretty reasonable, thank you, but I doubt many here might disagree. I have to admit I found the forum sort of stale until Crux came on the scene and found as a result many here have had to reach higher than before. If that makes any sense.

So I would ask of you why do you find Crux so obstinate and why are not able to make sense of it? Hopefully you will answer my question.Who knows we all might make good drinking buddies.

And to the taxes I find the taxes too high and with our souring debt figure the taxes are going higher.
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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Neck-aint-red
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2011 Apr 22 18:44

Gee, Sam, it's just a pretty strong impression I have from watching him in action. Not pretty.
If he's to your taste, more power to you but I'd choose you for a drinking buddy over him any day!

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Sam
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Sam » 2011 Apr 22 19:20

Well Pal, and my neck ain't red either. Well maybe a little. I think Crux has more depth than others see. I like to see the good in all if I can. I think Fangz is a deep thinker and usually enjoy many of her postings except when she gets her back up....then she can get pretty vivid in her manner. Now this gal Amy seems to be ready for a good match but then she may have other stuff on her plate. I rather enjoy Coondog he has some humor and believe Wise Guy has lost it with Crux.

But maybe we can all settle down now that those who don't want to view some's postings can block them and maybe we all can get about the business of discussing or sharing our various viewpoints. So I favor a good old stiff jack Daniels = it goes down pretty smooth. Now lets see where is that JD?
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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Crux
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The silence is deafening!!!

Postby Crux » 2011 Apr 22 23:43

1. Do you think that it is a fair share of the tax burden that 1% of tax filers pay 40% of taxes collected?
2. Do you think it is a FAIR SHARE that 10% of tax filers pay 70% of taxes collected?
3. Do you think the bottom 50% actually RECEIVING money in aggregate from taxpayers through redistribution is fair?

It is a very serious situation here.

Medicare and Social Security are ALONE 107 trillion in the hole when it comes to unfunded federal mandates... Another view is that this country is going to run deficits for as far as the eye can see if EVERY REVENUE DOLLAR was directed at ONLY the entitlements of MC,MA,and SS... We have stagflation, the whacky attempt to reinflate the housingg bubble...commodity prices like oil, gold and energy SOAR as our Fed quantitatively eased the dollar down...The Left celebrates EARTH DAY and it's "green energy" ASSAULT upon the indigent, the poor and the middle class...

And you think I am loony?

:dontknow:

The Government needs to get out the way...we need to stop the command economy.
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Sam
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Sam » 2011 Apr 23 07:16

From what I read and hear, I have drawn the conclusion that we as a country are going to go bankrupt. There is no other way we are headed. I have been buying silver because when the green backs become useless and they will silver will still be accepted. Long after Rome was destroyed, the silver coins they issued still are worth something. Our country is in deep trouble. The Federal Reserve hires the Treasury to print up the paper money, and I read somewhere they don't pay a dollar for a dollar. Then that money goes after goods and services if there are any goods left in America. They even give it to banks at is's dollar value. Maybe if the Federal Reserve shut down the presses they could stop inflation.
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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Neck-aint-red
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2011 Apr 23 09:03

I came upon a restatement of right wing claptrap today: "If 1 percent of the population pays 39.1 percent of all federal income tax receipts and 40 percent of the population pays nothing, which group is the glutton? Which is the plunderer? "

By exaggerating our actual tax schedule, the argument below shows the suggestion implied above is nonsense.

Suppose a village has only 3 families, with the following incomes:

A = $3,000/year from doing occasional odd jobs for B and C. He and his wife are elderly and mostly disabled
B = $43,750/year from buying and selling collectibles on the internet
C = $1,003,750/year ($103,750 salary from serving on corporate boards and the rest in capital gains)

Rats have infested the village and they need to buy traps and put them everywhere. For this common purpose they decide after some squabbling to tax themselves, A and C outvoting B to adopt this tax schedule:
10% on earned income, with a personal exemption of $3,750 so tax bills arrive in these amounts:

A = $ 0 which is 0% of the total revenue collected and 0% of his total income
B = $4,000 which is 29% of the total revenue collected and 9.1% of his total income
C = $10,000 which is 71% of the total revenue collected and 1% of his total income

Is this fair? If not, which is unjust?
The free ride received by A, the poor guy?
The miniscule tax rate paid by C, the rich guy?
The large percentage taken from B, the middle class guy? (He's definitely pissed off.)
The large percentage of total revenue contributed by C, the rich guy?

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Sam
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Sam » 2011 Apr 23 09:51

How about left wing claptrap
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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Neck-aint-red
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2011 Apr 23 10:13

yes how about that