Taxes Too High? Think again...

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Coondog
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Coondog » 2011 May 10 14:50

I dunno, Parker!

$50,000 doesn't go far these days. I see your point, but when one considers the cost of feeding and clothing those kids.....and the wife, payments on either a mortgage or rent, family health insurance, a car payment - or likely two.
Out of the $50,000, we can duduct for medicare and social security.

So $10,000 mortgage/rent
$9,600 health insurance
$6,000 car payments

Half of it's gone right there.

That leaves $2,083 per month for witheld taxes, medicare & SS, utilities, gas, food, clothing, cat food, property taxes, broken washing machines, incidental medical expenses, cable TV/internet, and all the junk one buys for those PTA fundraisers, maybe a five day vacation at VA Beach. You know! All those little expenses that makes one wonder where the money went. Depending on location and the ages of the adults and kids, this leads to a potential $50,000 austere existence.

How about saving for those kiddies to go to college? Forget it! Maybe there IS NO answer. Maybe a lot of us are just doomed! Maybe it can't be fixed..........but I weary of hearing how businesses need all these up front incentives for the already failed trickle down theory to work.

Here's an idea! How about we condition all these business incentives on the ACTUAL creation of jobs instead of just giving the incentives away and hoping for what is obviously not happening?

About that family.....What happens to the $50,000 per year couple with two kids if the job is terminated because the other $50,000 families cannot afford to buy what the former breadwinner's employer was producing or selling? A sound downsizing decision for the employer. Bankruptcy and/or Foreclosure for the family?

Before we conclude that the government should be run like a business (especially by people like Donald Trump) we should consider that when a company fires somebody, they are gone.....off the books.....no longer a consideration. A government cannot do that! No matter how an individual may be disenfranchised, they're still going to be there and they're still part of the equation.

How we deal with this issue is the fundamental question. A famous person once said that the poor will be with us always. I don't think conservatives in congress, while potentially well intentioned, appreciate that fact. Every recent proposal appears to deny it!


Coondog :thumdwn:

I don't want a pickle.........!

ParkerLongbaugh

Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby ParkerLongbaugh » 2011 May 10 15:59

I won't argue that $50k doesn't go far these days. But it certainly goes far enough that it just shouldn't be that someone with that level of income not only does NOT contribute to the things the income tax system pays for but even RECEIVES re-distributive income through the force of the federal government. There are a hell of lot of things on your sample expense list that should be cut out or cut back before forcing one's neighbors to pay for them. If I couldn't pay for a $500/month car payment without forcing my neighbors to involuntarily contribute, I should be driving something else, for example. If I can't pay for my own cable TV, then I shouldn't watch it- that's awfully damn far down on the list of things I consider "needed" and worthy of involuntary subsidy.

I've earned as little as $20k a year, and as much as $100k+ a year in my life. No matter what the income, I was responsible for ensuring my level of expense matched my abilities to pay for it. I NEVER ONCE received more money from the tax system than I paid into it, that's for sure. That mentality and reality seems to be long gone these days. :sad:

YMMV :wink:

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Coondog
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Coondog » 2011 May 10 16:21

Oh, yes! I agree you shouldn't get more back than you pay into it. If a 100% refund is due, that's fine. Anything over 100%...........I wish I knew how to do that.......but, it still ain't right!

Coondog :nono:

Or....is it like rollover minutes?

P.S. Cable TV IS a necessity if you can't afford the Drive In......especially if it's winter time............... you have a family......... and own an Axe!

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Crux
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Catching on?

Postby Crux » 2011 May 10 18:31

'dog?
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

ParkerLongbaugh

Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby ParkerLongbaugh » 2011 May 11 09:01

It's why some political segments of our government are all about "tax credits" instead of "tax deductions". Deductions are only of value to those who are paying into the system in the first place, where credits are simply a means to transferring wealth from those who pay in to anyone the tax law chooses to receive it. Have I said it's disgusting already? :thumdwn:

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Sam
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Sam » 2011 May 12 19:15

I may have my head taken off here, but Folks, I believe everyone should contribute some form of personnel taxes to the government. I have found over the years that when people have to put in money for something, they become more involved, feel a certain responsibility for the organization and assume certain accountability. My wife when she was seeing clients had them pay according to their pay, but never saw anyone for free as she said that she found out from experience that those who didn’t pay never accepted full accountability or responsibility for the therapy. So it stands for people paying taxes, instead of feeling the government should take care of them, they need to understand they need to take care of themselves. I know there are times when this isn’t always possible. We are a nation that is becoming far too dependent upon our old Uncle Sam. Just because he is our uncle doesn’t mean we need to be taken care of forever.
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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Wise One
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The Good Old Days

Postby Wise One » 2011 Jun 13 09:49

gas1956b.jpg
gas1956b.jpg (60.92 KiB) Viewed 2000 times


If one were to scale taxes to the present price of refined gasoline, we'd be paying at least another $1.50 per gallon over what we're paying now so we are under-taxed relative to American precedent.

With respect to European practice, we are grossly under-taxed. They wisely collect more than $5 a gallon in taxes to raise general revenue, encourage use of transportation alternatives, reduce imports, and for environmental benefits.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Crux
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Postby Crux » 2011 Jun 14 21:01

Democrat = more taxes
Democrat = more Government
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

ParkerLongbaugh

Re: The Good Old Days

Postby ParkerLongbaugh » 2011 Jun 15 08:49

crux wrote: Democrat = more taxes
Democrat = more Government

We can hardly claim the Republicans haven't played that game too, unfortunately. Being wrong-headed in terms of the role of government in our lives, our pocketbooks and our economy is hardly a monopoly for the Democrats. :shakeh:

Wise One wrote: With respect to European practice, we are grossly under-taxed. They wisely collect more than $5 a gallon in taxes to raise general revenue, encourage use of transportation alternatives, reduce imports, and for environmental benefits.

Mrs PL is European, and even she recognizes that there are VERY few comparisons we can make with their governments, their economies, their taxes, and their societies in general.

She's German, in fact- from the country which represents the largest national economy and population in the EU. Many would argue they are the strongest and stablest of the EU economies too- they are certainly carrying the load for many of the other idiotic economies/governments/policies they joined with...

Even with that in mind, the entire German nation would only be our fifth largest state, ranked between Montana and New Mexico, but their population is more than California, Texas and New York state combined. Do "transportation alternatives" work for them? Of course they do, but that hardly translates to what we have here.

And reduce imports? Germany imports 2/3 of its energy (compared to about 1/3 of our total energy being imported), and announced a week or two ago that they were going to shut down their nuclear plants and import even more of their energy in the future. 70% of the German economy is pure service-based, a risky setup we've already copied.

The German investment ratio is less than 1/3 of the US's, mostly due to having to pay now for programs and policies that are not sustainable in the future. How will that work in the interests of future generations, a problem many Americans are just starting to consider here?

If someone disagrees with my selection of Germany for a real comparison of European policies, go ahead and choose another EU country and dig down into the facts. I'll give you a hint- don't pick Greece, Spain, Ireland, Portugal or Great Britain... :wink2:

So while its easy and tempting to cherry-pick single facets that appear better or smarter, the real big picture of European policies tells a different story.

Put all together, is that where the US wants to go? I think not, and I hope enough people agree with me that we don't slide in that direction. Lets fix our problems without copying bad policies, mistakes and failed experiments from across the pond.

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Wise One
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Re: The Good Old Days

Postby Wise One » 2011 Jun 15 13:21

ParkerLongbaugh wrote:Even with that in mind, the entire German nation would only be our fifth largest state, ranked between Montana and New Mexico, but their population is more than California, Texas and New York state combined. Do "transportation alternatives" work for them? Of course they do, but that hardly translates to what we have here.

I guess I'd put your retort in the "true but not especially relevant" box. Do you really believe that Montana has the impact on global economics, innovation, technology, culture, art, and politics that Germany does? I must agree that one cannot map one region's transportation solution lockstep into another's requirements, but there are many regions of the US that cry out for mass transit alternatives that would be supported and encouraged by higher gasoline tax. America is supposed to be all about choice, but for nearly all Americans the only choice offered is car.

ParkerLongbaugh wrote:Germany imports 2/3 of its energy (compared to about 1/3 of our total energy being imported ... )

Again, "true but not especially relevant." The numbers reflect an inherent difference in domestic natural resources over which there is no control. There is control over how they are used, and by taxing gasoline the Germans have wisely chosen not to make their import situation even worse. The dollar cost of petroleum whether imported or domestically pumped, even though fractionally smaller than in Germany, is a huge opportunity for savings that we refuse to address at our peril .

ParkerLongbaugh wrote:Put all together, is that where the US wants to go?

My response is, "yes and no." Smart would be to emulate those strategies that serve us best and forget those whose promise is small. For me, European energy policies especially in taxation are smart and deserving of emulation.

The nuclear topic is complicated and I'll defer discussion, only pointing out that for Japan the cost of nuclear is proving to be anything but attractive. Others are wise to at least scratch their heads and perhaps pause until the situation is more clear than it is now as to long-term competitiveness of the nuclear option.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

ParkerLongbaugh

Re: The Good Old Days

Postby ParkerLongbaugh » 2011 Jun 15 13:53

Wise One wrote: There is control over how they are used, and by taxing gasoline the Germans have wisely chosen not to make their import situation even worse.

I think we'll just agree to disagree on most of this, but the sentence I quoted shows a basic underlying difference in our perspectives. From my observations, Germany does not tax gasoline to address an import/export or environmental or any other reason, other than to raise revenue for gov and the things gov wants to do. They SAY they tax it for various "good" reasons, but the reality points out otherwise.

And the same can be said of us at all levels of gov- over and over and over. Does anyone really think the parking fees paid in downtown Lexington go to improve roads and traffic and safety there? Does anyone really think our state lottery proceeds really pay for "education"- they certainly go to those gov departments (about 80% or so, I think), but one is hard pressed to say those budgets make sense and are really about educating students. Does anyone really think our social security taxes go towards paying for our future social security? The list is endless.

I am not personally willing to allow gov to tax more and more under the demonstably false promise of it being put towards a good use or policy- their track record on that is near zero, at all levels and in all areas. I pursue energy issues and alternatives on my own because they make sense and are the right thing to do, and taxing us $5 per gallon will only decrease my ability to do that while simultaneuously damn near certainly NOT accomplishing what gov would be promising to do with the money. That alone warrants my opposition to supporting the taxation and policy structures we've talked about.

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Wise One
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Wise One » 2011 Jun 22 00:18

"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Sam
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Sam » 2011 Jun 22 10:45

It' interesting to note he is a democrat- don't know how balanced this is.
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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Coondog
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Coondog » 2011 Jun 22 12:38

Sam!

I don't think it's a matter of a "balanced" interpretation of facts. It's true, what you would consider the left wing media is making much of these statistics, but even Fox News is acknowledging (sans interpretation) that the income disparity is growing to monumental levels.

Ed Schultz, who I consider the one person who might exemplify that far left extremist we're always hearing about, made a point last night.....and I believe it is a good one. If the economic theory of the republicans is correct, the huge increases in wealth of the upper percentages (the job creators) SHOULD, over the past 10 years, have led to the job creation and enhanced well being of the lower income brackets. This has not happened.

Although this has not happened (illustratively so) this theory still drives the conversation, the ideology and focus of the republican agenda. Additional tax cuts and incentives, freebies and preferences to the wealthiest (at the expense of the less wealthy) only serves to expand the income (wealth) disparity.

It is clear that the wealthiest corporations and individuals, who are expected to be the drivers of the economy, are not even participating in the economy. They have managed, under current favorable influences, to drain a huge percentage of wealth from the economy, put are failing to perform as advertised. They have taken their toys and gone home.

To continue to believe that further empowering this sector is in any way beneficial to the economy or the country is, quite frankly, illogical and.....................perhaps insane.

The idea that absolving the holders of the largest percentage of wealth from participation in the economy will somehow increase tax revenue and affect the deficit in any positive fashion is simply false.

I would welcome an alternative explanation to the very real issue of increasing income disparity because the very fact of it's existence serves to prove by example that the republican plan does not work.

Personally, I'm waiting for Bill Clinton's ideas to be unveiled (coming soon). He doesn't like Obama OR republicans.

Coondog

Give ME the money and I'll spend it .....perhaps foolishly....but, the economy will prosper!

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Crux
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Crux » 2011 Jun 22 14:25

Economy doubles in size, wages stagnate...RR doesn't let on what slice of the pie or effect the government has had. Has the Government Doubled? Quadrupled? (yes and then some) No mention of the tax offsets that have been eliminated, or the percent of total taxes paid by the super wealthy as a total percentage (which has risen). GOD! RR!? This guy has said all manner of WHACKY stuff. This government and it's champions are out of control.
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Coondog
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Re: Taxes Too High? Think again...

Postby Coondog » 2011 Jun 23 13:12

In case you didn't follow the story all that closely:

GOVERNMENT REVENUE IS ALSO DOWN

If the government was responsible, wouldn't its revenue have increased, too?

I don't care if the super rich pay 99% in taxes. If they still expidentially increase their wealth disportionately to every one else, then 99% isn't high enough. If they don't like it, let them go live in China. Let's see how bribing government officials goes over with the Asian folk!

Coondog :toothy:

Rots of Ruck!

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Crux
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Virginia's own, Moran.

Postby Crux » 2011 Jul 18 15:45

crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...


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