American Healthcare

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Re: American Healthcare

Postby Trend Setter » 2012 May 01 14:08

Interesting, fangz. It reminds me of a truism often mentioned in connection with taxes. A small minority account for most of the dollars. As somebody said, that is simple arithmetic and will always be true regardless of the details. Our challenge is to manage that most costly element as smartly as possible.

Here's a nice piece that appeared in a local paper by a Lexington councilman.

David Cox in Rockbridge Weekly wrote:Health or Solvency?
HERE I STAND

This year I discovered the American health care system up close and personal. Darn it all. Except it made me well. So I’m not complaining. But I’m certainly sobered.

Three surgeries in seven months can do that.

Just last week I went in—and came out—for the most recent cutting. It went great. But as the preadmission caller told me beforehand, just for the privilege of using the operating room alone would cost more than the prize of a Caribbean vacation on “Wheel of Fortune.”

Fortunately, I have fantastic health insurance. My out-of-pocket expense was less than the cost of a vowel. Initially, anyway.

But the question keeps nagging me: What of those millions who don’t have any insurance at all, and who absolutely need the sort of surgery I had?

Today, the Supreme Court holds its unprecedented third day of hearings on the health care reform act of 2010. “Obamacare,” some deride it. “Obamneycare,” as certain GOP opponents of a certain candidate might name it, or “Romneycare-writ-large.” Politics aside, this is a big case, one whose complexities I barely understand.

What I do understand is this: We have a problem in this country. We may have the best medical care in the world: Some may debate the point, given how much healthier than ours some nations’ populations tend to be. As a happy customer, I think it’s pretty darn good.

But then, I didn’t have to pay for it, not anywhere near the full price. What about those who don’t have policies like mine?

Thirty years ago I was summoned to a hospital ICU, as pastor: A young man had ridden his motorcycle one night, without lights, without helmet, and without insurance. He scrambled his brains on a tree. For a week he lingered, on machines, in the most expensive site in the medical world, in the vain hope he might somehow come to. He didn’t. And along with the cost in human grief was the economic burden borne, not by him, nor the family (neither of whom could ever have afforded it), but by the hospital and state. We, collectively, paid the bill.

More recently a young student kept me updated on the progress of his pregnant wife. One day he reported that she went into the hospital, very early. There she stayed, weeks on end, until their son was born. There he, in turn, stayed, more weeks on end, until the parents could bring him home—healthy, thanks be. I asked if the student had insurance. “Oh yes,” he responded. “Your own?” “No way.” “Your parents’?” No. What, then?

Medicaid.

We, collectively, paid the bill. Through taxes and higher insurance premiums, we bore the cost.

On one level, I’m glad we did. As a society, we value human life.

Therefore, though, society can’t abide hospitals turning away pregnant mothers or premature babies, nor kids brought in by ambulance after accidents no matter how stupidly those kids had acted.

Is it reasonable for society to foot every bill? Or, at what point do we, society, insist on some personal responsibility? (That, after all, was the point Mitt Romney made on his Massachusetts insurance mandate.)

Maybe requiring everyone to buy insurance isn’t constitutional. Maybe there’s a better way. But right now it’s the only solution out there I know of that really addresses the problem.

If the Supreme Court knocks down the mandate, so be it. If so, then we as a nation simply have to figure out a workable alternative that does pass constitutional muster. Private enterprise alone can’t figure it out: If private enterprise could solve it, it would have done so already; and, besides, private enterprise isn’t picking up the tab even now (see above examples).

For unless we do, we as a nation will end up neither healthy nor solvent.

(PS: I remain ecstatically grateful for the care I received from our system, and the health it restored.)
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Re: American Healthcare

Postby fangz1956 » 2012 May 07 10:06

The Massachusetts Plan

I've got a friend in the Boston area who had an apoplectic fit when Massachusetts put their individual mandate into place. After watching the progress of their plan, I'm confident her fit was in vain for the long-term. This looks like they are on the right track and I definitely applaud a number of the measures they have included in the plan. The loan forgiveness incentive for docs who practice in rural areas is beautiful in its simplicity....a quite remarkable idea. Transparency and details in costs up-front and posted on-line???? Brilliant and long overdue! Requiring hospitals to justify their pricing???? Hell yeah!! There is so much good in this plan that it boggles the mind. If a national plan could be modeled after the one in Massachusetts, every single person in this country would be better served by the healthcare industry........and folks in healthcare wouldn't have to worry about losing their jobs because the industry bankrupted the nation.

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Re: American Healthcare

Postby fangz1956 » 2012 Jun 09 08:25

Image
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Re: American Healthcare

Postby Amy Probenski » 2012 Jun 23 07:20

I think you just put me onto a great backup medical insurance plan, Fangz!

Here's a piece on medical billing showing just how crazy and immoral the present US system is. I have seen it in action myself. For example, I have received statements from medical providers detailing huge medical charges that are only laughable if you have a very sick sense of humor. Because I have health insurance the billed amount is never paid, only an amount that is typically 1/3 of the stated figure because of agreements the insurer(s) negotiated and an individual can never negotiate.

The poor bastard lacking health insurance, least capable of paying anything, gets stuck for an enormous bill vastly larger than my insurance company must pay. Too often this means that his family will become homeless in order that medical CEO's may continue living their lives of opulence.

While there is much that is lacking in Obamacare, it is at least a timid step in the direction of starting to address defects like this in the American healthcare system that are wickedly immoral.

Final note. A friend, now an American citizen but originally from France, urgently needed a hysterectomy. Even with her good insurance the US cost would have vastly exceeded what she actually wound up paying by flying to France for the surgery and paying 100% of the cost. Her treatment was the best and she's fine now. During surgery an unexpected discovery was made by her excellent surgeon, resulting in his removing a dangerously inflamed appendix at no additional charge.

A prior incident had set the stage for her decision to go to France. She awoke in the night with excruciating pain, went for a few hours of diagnosis for what turned out to be essentially nothing. She was billed $32,000 before leaving the medical center with a demand that she pay immediately. When she objected, the administrator then said, "If you pay now, the charge is only $13,000", which only caused my friend to ask, "What is this, a flea market or a medical facility?" She refused to pay anything and after a year of squabbling her insurance company finally paid about $1000 and the provider was satisfied.
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32,000 for a few hours of diagnostics

Postby crux » 2012 Jun 24 08:44

bull

Produce the bill here, or shut the hell up. 32K for a "few hours of diagnostics". This is total crap make believe fairy poop.
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Re: American Healthcare

Postby fangz1956 » 2012 Jun 24 08:58

Crux, you're so full of it your eyes must be brown.

I have a similar experience with my broken tibia....and have copies of all of the bills to prove it. Everything Amy's friend encountered in this country is true!!!!!! I suggest you educate yourself before you going running off at the mouth half-cocked.


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Broken Tibia does not equal a few hours of diagnostics

Postby crux » 2012 Jun 24 09:16

BULL again if you think 32,000 was billed for "a few hours of diagnostics". Amy is not correct in her simple portrayal.

Your tibia might have been complicated, might have entailed therapy and unintended consequences.

What was the cost of that tibia?

My eyes are brown by the way, but you really over react to what I say, all the time Fangz. THIRTY TWO THOUSAND DOLLARS
for a few little hours of simple diagnostics for pain? Hardly...

Admit it. Obamacare is a foul piece of work. It was NOT a legislative triumph. 15 million UN-insured folks could have been more simply and cheaply covered by vouchers for Private insurance.

This is DEEPER than good intentions and laudable sympathies...

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Re: Broken Tibia does not equal a few hours of diagnostics

Postby Wise One » 2012 Jun 24 09:58

crux wrote:15 million UN-insured folks could have been more simply and cheaply covered by vouchers for Private insurance.

Not a bad suggestion, but it amounts to BULL only because conservatives bitterly oppose this as well as all other measures that would broaden health insurance coverage. Emulating Lucy's yanking Linus' football, I guarantee that Republicans will vote vouchers down.

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Absolutely

Postby crux » 2012 Jun 24 12:11

...it goes deeper. Of the 15 million, many many are healthy 20 somethings who can not afford, and/or choose not to purchase health insurance. There is the option as well as a PARTIAL voucher. There are many many who could afford the insurance who don't wish to buy it. Like a quarter of the uninsured are eligible SCHIP kids that are not enrolled. Many of the unisured remain so for short periods of a year or so.

The fact is, universal government health care is the end game sought by many, as it is through Obamacare.

I reject it...
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Re: American Healthcare

Postby fangz1956 » 2012 Jun 28 14:09

Two words: HAPPY DANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


"dance13" "dance13" "dance13"

:blob1: :blob1: :blob1:


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Dewey Defeats Truman !

Postby nudgewink » 2012 Jun 28 14:54

(click on each image to avoid having to scroll)

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obamacnnsupremecourt.jpg (72.6 KiB) Viewed 377 times


obamaCNN.jpg
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I guess it is a tax, a constitutionally protected tax...

Postby crux » 2012 Jun 28 20:55

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Re: American Healthcare

Postby Wise One » 2012 Jun 29 22:29

Marcia Angell is one sharp cookie and her opinion here is worth noting.

She feels that Obamacare has fatal flaws and must be overhauled.

Why? Basically for all the same reasons we had misgivings over during its run-up as Obama conceded repeatedly to the insurance industry and Republicans. It started as a good idea, but Obama ruined it by caving to those two interest groups rather than fighting for true universal health care.

I continue to believe that the simplest, most practical, and politically achievable reform is simply to decrease the Medicare eligibility age with time. Angell agrees.

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Re: American Healthcare

Postby fangz1956 » 2012 Jun 30 13:45

There is still a very long row to hoe here. This is simply a long overdue step in the right direction. Any literate person with half a brain knew from the get-go that Obama talks a good talk but he caves repeatedly when the time comes time to walk that talk. He was a notorious flip-flopper in the Senate....his flip on FISA being a prime example of that. He has done the same thing over and over since being elected President.

At this juncture, I believe moving toward a single-payor system is the best way to proceed. The highly profitable insurance industry has plenty of other areas in which to hawk their wares and there will be no shortage of customers. My personal opinion is that profiting off of the pain and suffering of others is purely amoral. The medical profession as whole......yes, whole.......needs to begin a decisive shift toward preventative medicine. The physicians can really make that happen if they push hard enough and stop caving to Big Pharma & the insurance industry.

From all the reading I have done, I believe that the majority of people would prefer to be healthy and would seek out ways to do that given the funding to do so. Funding preventative care is whole lot cheaper than the massive science experiments that are undertaken every day trying to fix what's already broke and beyond repair. The vast amounts of money spent in Emergency Rooms needs to end.......and it can if people are provided with the ways & means to receive regular preventative healthcare s opposed to the current state of "sick-care".

I wish I could explain the current situation so that each of you would really understand.......but you really need to see it from my side of the fence. You need to see the constant parade of human misery pouring into ER's all day, every day......misery that wouldn't be there IF these people had access to routine "healthcare".

This is one case where the clock needs to be turned back.......back to the family doctor. The creation of HMO's brought about the invention of the Hospitalist.......a doctor who only sees patients in the hospital......and the family doctor is robbed of the privilege of doing that anymore. There is no real continuum of care as the family doc is cut out of the loop at a time when he really needs to be a major part of the picture. The for-profit health insurance industry did this for you. Is this a great country or what?

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Re: American Healthcare

Postby Sam » 2012 Jul 08 08:52

Well little lady, it all sounds good at least in theory, but to provide preventive care in many cases the people have got to be cooperative. By that I mean eating healthy, exercising, not smoking or drinking, driving carefully etc. I have seen so many time people with food stamps at the store buying cigarettes etc and that sure isn't healthy. People have got to want to be healthy. Diabetes has become one of the biggest problems among my Mother's people.

Its like providing free education in the US from grade school through high school. I believe our education system is not ranked very high among other countries and often kids don't go or drop out. This to me is a preventive form of living, getting a good education, yet there are those who just don't care. I fully understand the part about not caring, but it happens and I wonder if this would be true with the preventive medicine.

Just putting my two cents in.
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Re: American Healthcare

Postby fangz1956 » 2012 Jul 08 10:04

Sam,

Do you ever go grocery shopping? If so, do you pay close attention to how things are priced? Whole foods like fresh fruits and veggies are priced out of sight. The unhealthiest foods in ANY grocery store are generally the cheapest things to buy. The better sale in any given store will be for things like frozen pizza, frozen french fries, potato chips, super sweet cereal, and overly processed mac & cheese. Berries, peaches, leafy greens and the like are priced like they are laced with gold dust. White bread is cheap but whole wheat, whole grain and muli-grain breads cost an arm and a leg.

Now we all know what nutritionists say about the right way to eat to maintain a healthy lifestyle and stave off things like obesity and diabetes. Why do grocery stores have multiple aisles packed with candy & cookies? So.........why are the grocers not on board? Why are they working in the opposite direction of a healthier citizenry? Shouldn't they be drug through the coals just like the fast food joints?

Just like the WIC (Women, Infants & Children) program, the food stamp program as whole needs to adopt a list of non-approved items that go beyond cigareetes, booze, soap & toilet paper. They need to bar frozen pizzas, chips, candy, cookies and the vast array of other empty calorie foods. Heaven forbid, people might just have to expend the energy of learning how to actually cook!!! I have watched countless morbidly obese recipients of food stamps rolling around Kroger loading their motorized buggies with nothing but junk food.........and these same people have several kids in tow. I feel sorry for the kids as they have probably never seen a truly healthy meal in their lives.

The problem is massive and covers numerous areas of the way we live and think. America's healthcare disaster will never be solved or improved until we get everyone on-board including the grocers and the food stamp programs. Perhaps food stamp recipients should be required to pass a shopping & cooking test. Anybody who fails the test or uses their food stamps for purchases of junk food gets to have them revoked. it's a starting point. If they really must have cookies, they need to learn how to make them from scratch!!!

This issue is not an easy one and it's not isolated to a single industry. We have to look at all components of the big picture and work to correct the entire system as we have come to know it. Anybody who doesn't fight for the change remains part of the problem. And the problem really boils down to two things......life or death.


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Re: American Healthcare

Postby Wise One » 2012 Jul 08 19:22

fangz1956 wrote:Whole foods like fresh fruits and veggies are priced out of sight. The unhealthiest foods in ANY grocery store are generally the cheapest things to buy.

This is sadly and often true, but not always. We find it is generally no more expensive to eat healthy. Here are some guidelines that seem to work for us:
  • Don't swim upstream, buy fresh fruits and vegetables in season. They are incredibly abundant and cheap and taste absolutely the best then.
  • Many processed foods are vastly more expensive then close alternatives. Example: beans, one of the best foods you can eat, much cheaper bought dry and cooked than prepared. Popcorn, the microwave packages astronomically priced compared to kernels.
  • Buy a whole chicken rather than prepared parts, boil up the bones & giblets, add carrots & onions and you have several meals that are nutritious and inexpensive.
  • Soups are the neglected wonder food these days. Make great soups from whatever happens to be on hand.
  • On the other hand, some prepared foods are both cheaper and just as good as the fresh alternative. Example, frozen peas.
  • The most expensive foods are often so unhealthy they ought to be avoided or used quite sparingly. Example, most beef.
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Re: American Healthcare

Postby Sam » 2012 Jul 09 09:26

I have been hearing that beef is considered to be quite unhealthy, especially if you eat a lot. I groan because I like a good steak. But then I think moderation is the answer. I agree that people need to eat healthy. I find that often in poor neighborhoods that there is an abundance of fast food eateries but no grocery stores. I just read an article where a union of grocery stores are concerned about obesity in our country and want to help. But I wonder if even offered healthy foods as you both talk about and in moderate prices will encourage those who eat at the fast food places of select the foods that are not healthy for them. They need to be educated on what is importance and healthy to eat. I always have said that if you are going to give welfare checks out to people, especially to those with children that in order to get their checks they need to take classes on how to feed and raise their children and then demonstrate that this. I keep telling my wife that if facilities were offered during the day for parents to take their children to, we could give these children at least two good meals a day. Seems to me this would be more economical than funding prisons.

Yes I go shopping for my wife a lot or at least used to, but do accompany her. I know that the foods we should eat are higher in dollars But I would point out that even if these foods were within the price range that would make them more affordable it wouldn't encourage many people to buy them. I believe that the American people have gotten so used to the unhealthy foods to eat that they don't know or care about eating the right foods. When I was growing up I don't remember any fast food places. We ate what is now days considered healthy because that was what we grew on our farms and in our gardens. Fast foods have taken over the American people's diets. That is a real shame.
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Re: American Healthcare

Postby Sam » 2012 Jul 10 07:39

Speaking of ObamaCare this article is interesting. I know that today I have a difficult time getting a timely appointment with my doctor than in the past.

[quote][/quoReport: 83 percent of doctors have considered quitting over Obamacare
Published: 2:20 PM 07/09/2012
By Sally Nelson

An opponent of President Barack Obama's health care law demonstrates outside the Supreme Court in Washington, Thursday, June 28, 2012, before the court's ruling on the law. (AP Photo/David Goldman)
Eighty-three percent of American physicians have considered leaving their practices over President Barack Obama’s health care reform law, according to a survey released by the Doctor Patient Medical Association.

The DPMA, a non-partisan association of doctors and patients, surveyed a random selection of 699 doctors nationwide. The survey found that the majority have thought about bailing out of their careers over the legislation, which was upheld last month by the Supreme Court.
Even if doctors do not quit their jobs over the ruling, America will face a shortage of at least 90,000 doctors by 2020. The new health care law increases demand for physicians by expanding insurance coverage. This change will exacerbate the current shortage as more Americans live past 65.
By 2025 the shortage will balloon to over 130,000, Len Marquez, the director of government relations at the American Association of Medical Colleges, told The Daily Caller.
“One of our primary concerns is that you’ve got an aging physician workforce and you have these new beneficiaries — these newly insured people — coming through the system,” he said. “There will be strains and there will be physician shortages.”
The DPMA found that many doctors do not believe the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will lead to better access to medical care for the majority of Americans, co-founder of the DPMA Kathryn Serkes told TheDC.
“Doctors clearly understand what Washington does not — that a piece of paper that says you are ‘covered’ by insurance or ‘enrolled’ in Medicare or Medicaid does not translate to actual medical care when doctors can’t afford to see patients at the lowball payments, and patients have to jump through government and insurance company bureaucratic hoops,” she said.
The American Medical Association, which endorsed Obama’s health care overhaul, was not able to immediately offer comment on the survey. Spokesperson Heather Lasher Todd said it would take time to review the information in the survey.
Janelle Davis of the American Academy of Family Physicians said the AAFP could not provide thoughtful commentary without studying the survey’s findings and methodology.
te]
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Re: American Healthcare

Postby coondog » 2012 Jul 10 16:47

The DPMA, a non-partisan association of doctors and patients............

Sam!

I went to the DPMA website. It's crammed full or more republican talking points and references to 'freedom" than a Tea Party convention featuring Richie Havens and free Meth.

As I am weary of debating issues founded on BS, I will expound no further on that subject.

Coondog :shakeh:

If doctors are limited and poor people are getting in the way of rich people getting to the doctor, then the answer is................... what? Prevent poor people from clogging up the waiting room? OK! Then, legalize pot! The AMA and Drug Companies have a strangle hold on most effective drugs. Give the poor bastards who have access to neither at least SOMETHING!
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