Obama

[crux]

It wasn't long ago this was the Dem position. The silence, relatively speaking, is deafening.

[Sam]

hey Buddy, you got that right.

[coondog]

Actually, I agree with you chumps!

Too many Dems and Reps are buying into the military industrial complex version of the necessity of waste. My guess is that no one wants to bring home all the troops and run the unemployment rate up to 20% in an election cycle. Not good for Dem election chances and...what Rep wants to inherit that kind of burdon?

History suggests that until students riot and close down universities, the wars will continue......and without a draft, students are about as apathetic as they can possibly get.

Mark your calandar, folks, today we agree on something!

Coondog

Mystic Chrystal Revalation ............

[crux]

65,000 reservists coming home is hardly going to run unemployment to 20%, unless you are actually acknowledging the underemployed, those not looking for work, etc. The adventurism in the Middle East is NO LESS under this President. One wonders what is going on in the minds of so many who voted for something completely different. What a real terrible and failed economic reality that has been layered over upon three fold by this President. Federal Government spending going up 30% or so in the last 10 years was something everybody should have been crying out against.

[ParkerLongbaugh]

My guess is that no one wants to bring home all the troops and run the unemployment rate up to 20% in an election cycle. Not good for Dem election chances and...what Rep wants to inherit that kind of burdon?

A few pertinent points to that concept:

1. Deployed folks pay no income tax. Even though my mil salary is less than my professional one, my NET is actually larger when deployed due to this. Uncle Sam loses a LOT of tax revenue when folks are sent overseas, whether they be active or reserve component.

2. Deployed reserve folks are, generally speaking, guaranteed their old jobs back. The unemployment might go up from temps or others that were hired to replace them, but in my experiences (3 deployments) the employers RARELY replace them while gone. In two of my three deployments, my employer simply spread my duties out to others (sorry guys!). In my other deployment, I was a business owner of a 9-man company that had 3 of us activated. The business folded and everyone lost their jobs due to the deployment, not due to our return.

[crux]

History suggests that until students riot and close down universities, the wars will continue......and without a draft, students are about as apathetic as they can possibly get.

(And this is the rub isn't it. OBAMA. The great leftist. WARMONGER. Now Yemen seems to be on the uptick of Democrat adventurism... Leftist students don't seem to be carrying the anti war water now that the President is a Leftist. They just sit back stunned and largely silent.)

Hypocrites.

[coondog]

Oh crux of selective memory...

Students in this country haven't raised a peep since Viet Nam. Their collective silence throughout all manner of warfare waged by either encumbant political party is deafening. 40 years ago it was all about ending the draft and getting the right to vote for 18 year olds. 5 minutes after that happened, their social conciousness dropped so far off the radar they allowed a bunch of lunatic middle aged activists sporting the appropriate moniker MADD to take their beer away from them.

The extent to which college students even know who the president is, much less whether he is leftist or whacko, is evidenced but once every four years when a bunch of zealous local yuppies hold a Mock Convention as another excuse to flaunt the ineffectiveness of alcohol age restrictions.

As for old vereran leftist hippies.....the only military action I can ever remember suporting was when Bush went into Afghanistan after bin Laden. That turned out to be a big mistake on my part! And for that, I apologise! Never Again!

If you consider that we invaded Iraq and failed to secure the oil and invaded Afghanistan and failed to corner the poppy trade, you have to ask yourself just what sort of business men any of these people are! It's not a question of right or left.....it's a question of right or wrong!

Coondog

On the employment front.......You're talking about reservists! I would imagine a lot of young military folk had no jobs before they enlisted. Unemployed and homeless veterans are already a pressing, yet virtually unadressed problem. But, they're just individuals, not corporations, so.....screw 'em, eh?

[Veeferguy]

Sam, do you really think that Bush #2 is innocent of running this country into the ground.

[Sam]

I firmly believe our present President is running this country into the ground if you want my true feelings. We now have a new war in Libya and that is costing us millions. Spending is out of control in Washington and while I believe some of these problems started before Obama got into office, Buddy, I feel he sure has speeded up the process while adding to it. I see a crisis pending on the horizon and frankly my dear, it frightens the hell out of me, not just for myself but for my children, grandchildren and great grandchildren.

[ParkerLongbaugh]

Sam, do you really think that Bush #2 is innocent of running this country into the ground.

You didn't ask me, but I would say that Bush is certainly on the long list of folks who were responsible for getting us to the dire position we're now in. That list goes back 20 years and includes a lot of folks from both major parties and from several administrations.

But this administration is solely responsible for the trajectory we're currently on- which is totally in the wrong direction and irreparably damaging us. Which is more important- looking back and pointing fingers or being honest about where we are now and what we should be doing about it?

[coondog]

Damn! I was going to start the weekend early....but, I simply cannot let this one slide:

But this administration is solely responsible for the trajectory we're currently on- which is totally in the wrong direction and irreparably damaging us.

You know, lots of people believe lots of things. Bigfoot! UFOs! The Easter Bunny! These are all ligitimate beliefs because they're grounded in some form of reality.

This idea that Obama's policies are so vastly dissimilar to the ones we're used to (they aren't) and that the country is all of a sudden plumeting in the wrong direction (it isn't) has become the mantra of the dissatisfied since the day Obama took office.

If we somehow convince ourselves that Obama has some sort of magical control of the economy... over the obstruction of republicans and the intrangience of corporate overlords....we still, in all decency, are required to qualify these sort of statements.

"irreparably damaging us"? How? Compared to What? Bush? Reagan? Nixon?

How about we put aside the lack of rationality, take the tin foil off our heads and see if we can't find some way to be helpful instead of parroting disingenuously unfounded "beliefs" crammed into our brains by the same losers who got us into this pickle in the first place?

Coondog

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”
Buddha

[crux]

The difference between Bush and Obama? About a trillion plus billion per year, in deficit spending, and it's attendant growth in government. 3 wars versus 2. Huge Union payoffs (1 trillion in "stimulus"). There's more. But the sun was shining today, so why cloud corndog's day? X number of millions in unemployed. X number of rounds of golf. I mean one can go on and on! I doubt Bush would have held a "jobs summit" and failed to invite the US chamber of commerce and the NFIB.

The problem with the Dems is that there are no fiscal conservatives, no small government types whatsoever...

I am looking forward to 2012 and no Obama.

[Sam]

So Pal, are we supposed to believe everything is hunky dory in this country? I watch TV (several channels, read the papers, read over the internet.) and everything I see points to a country in deep trouble. Are we supposed to sit on our thumbs and wait until we fall into the ocean? As my grandson would say, this blows my mind. I as well as others are not stupid when we see where we are and what is going on. Pal, i need a real shot or bourbon just to stomach your whole concept. And I aint got any tin foil on my head.

[fangz1956]

We're pretty much going to Hell in a bucket...but I'm not sure I'm enjoying the ride. I've read quite a bit over the past couple of weeks....more than my usual reading...and it is depressing as Hell. I'm beginning to wonder if I'm still in America. Obama isn't doing much except lip-service to the people as he woos Wall Street and engages in another hot spot where we have no business being involved. Congress is as culpable in a lot of what's happening as Obama....the Good Ole Boys at work wasting my tax dollars.

This is priceless and sums it up quite nicely: In A Nutshell

Obama every time he speaks!!!

[ParkerLongbaugh]

You know, lots of people believe lots of things. Bigfoot! UFOs! The Easter Bunny! These are all ligitimate beliefs because they're grounded in some form of reality.

Nice mud flinging- why not put some facts in your arguments for a change?

This idea that Obama's policies are so vastly dissimilar to the ones we're used to (they aren't) and that the country is all of a sudden plumeting in the wrong direction (it isn't) has become the mantra of the dissatisfied since the day Obama took office.

The policies are real-world different- in terms of sheer scale alone if nothing else. Bush grew our total debt from $5.64T to $10.64T from Jan01 to Dec08. That's 96 months of policies that heaped another $5T of debt on us all. Shame on him, and it was a policy I opposed then and oppose now. But Obama has grown that debt to $14.29T in 29 months- adding another $3.65T and making our debt THE SIZE OF OUR ENTIRE GDP! You can throw all the silly insults you want around- but can you honestly say you see is no difference in that? And you say others are the believers in silly things?

"irreparably damaging us"? How? Compared to What? Bush? Reagan? Nixon?

Wars end, policies change or expire, etc- but debt simply stacks up. THAT is the irreparable part of what our own gov is doing to us now- and no future Congress or administration can undo the size of what's been done. Using the examples you cited, can you honestly say any of those obligated our future to insurmountable debt? Well, I suppose you could say it- how about you cite the BLS or treasury data to back it up instead? That would be a nice change...

Bush damaged us- absolutely true, and it was done to a level that was hard to make right again. But this administration make the previous one look like rank amateurs in terms of future financial corner-painting...

If we somehow convince ourselves that Obama has some sort of magical control of the economy... over the obstruction of republicans and the intrangience of corporate overlords....we still, in all decency, are required to qualify these sort of statements.

So all the "It's Bush's fault!" magical power evaporated in January 2009? Interesting...

And pretty convenient to forget that this adminstration's party had control of the entire Congress for the first two years. ANY policy they agreed on and wanted to pass, they could have- without a single Republican supporting them. And don't claim they were stymied by filibusters- the 57 Democrats in the 111th Congress broke the most filibusters EVER in the history of Congress- more than 100!

So exactly which side of this argument needs to actually qualify their statements with supporting info?

[coondog]

Yes......the deficit has grown significantly.

Two wars! Obama did not start them. Fault him for not ending them.....but not for the cost.

A (not big enough) stimulis package. Half of which were Tax Cuts to appease the Tax Cut Crowd. The rest went to people like Bobby Jindle who took credit for the money while crying about government spending.

Extension of Bush Tax Cuts. More appeasement to the Tax Cut Crowd. Fault him for sucking up....but not for the cost.

Unemployment. Business took their tax savings and are either sitting on them or spending them overseas. Blame Obama for compromising....but not for the failure.

Congress? You're gonna blame Obama for THEM? They should all be neutered!

If you want to blame Obama....blame him for being the wimp he has shown us he is. He has allowed the current quagmire to fester by allowing the republicans to own the national dialogue for the past two and a half years. He lets them say, and get away with, just about anything, no matter how absurd, without challenge. He's no Hillary Clinton! But at least he's not a Republican!


Coondog

Republicans had their chance. They blew it. At some point, they should shut up and at least not obstruct someone who wants to try something different.

[Sam]

For crying out loud when are people gonna stop blaming Bush, they seem to be stuck in one place. Its like they don't know what else to do but the blame Bush game. Well Pal, it's now our turn and I blame Obama, all the way. And there are three wars, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. Don't think ole Obama got approval from Congress on the last one.

[ParkerLongbaugh]

A (not big enough) stimulis package.

Arguing over the pros and cons of the size is fairly pointless, when half the country believes that Keynesian government spending is the solution to this while the other half very much don't. Ben Bernake disagrees (surprise!) but such hard left thinktanks as UCLA (which icon is the one for sarcasm?) argue that the Keynesian program that was previously the nation's largest, Roosevelt's, actually extended the Great Depression by as much as 7 years rather than help end it.

I would ask you, as someone who pretty clearly falls into the first camp, to point out one example in the last 150 years of a successful Keynesian recovery?

Half of which were Tax Cuts to appease the Tax Cut Crowd. The rest went to people like Bobby Jindle who took credit for the money while crying about government spending.

I guess we can agree here, if by “half” you mean the $288 billion of the $787 billion law was tax incentives (36%), of which only 18% of that went to companies and the rest went to individuals. The single biggest tax element was an individual tax credit, which folks making well under Obama's definition of rich (either $250k or $200k, I’m not sure which is the present number) don't get. That one alone cost more than double all the company/corporate tax issues combined. But wait, there’s more- we’ve also got child tax credits, college tax credits, homebuyer tax credits, unemployment exclusions, energy tax credits and earned income tax credits- hardly what I would call a conservative or right-wing litany. The entire concept of using a “credit” rather than a deduction is just part of making sure those with no “skin in the game” (as Obama puts it) can still suck something out of the system.

Ok, nevermind- we don’t agree. Here, everyone can read the real numbers themselves and see if this financial millstone is the product of the evil right-wing corporation lovers as some would have us believe…

Total Program Cost: $787 billion

Tax Incentives Total: $288 billion

Tax incentives for individuals Total: $237 billion
$116 billion: New payroll tax credit of $400 per worker and $800 per couple in 2009 and 2010. Phaseout begins at $75,000 for individuals and $150,000 for joint filers.
$70 billion: Alternative minimum tax: a one year increase in AMT floor to $70,950 for joint filers for 2009.
$15 billion: Expansion of child tax credit: A $1,000 credit to more families (even those that do not make enough money to pay income taxes).
$14 billion: Expanded college credit to provide a $2,500 expanded tax credit for college tuition and related expenses for 2009 and 2010. The credit is phased out for couples making more than $160,000.
$6.6 billion: Homebuyer credit: $8,000 refundable credit for all homes bought between 1/1/2009 and 12/1/2009 and repayment provision repealed for homes purchased in 2009 and held more than three years. This only applies to first-time homebuyers.
$4.7 billion: Excluding from taxation the first $2,400 a person receives in unemployment compensation benefits in 2009.
$4.7 billion: Expanded earned income tax credit to increase the earned income tax credit — which provides money to low income workers — for families with at least three children.
$4.3 billion: Home energy credit to provide an expanded credit to homeowners who make their homes more energy-efficient in 2009 and 2010. Homeowners could recoup 30 percent of the cost up to $1,500 of numerous projects, such as installing energy-efficient windows, doors, furnaces and air conditioners.
$1.7 billion: for deduction of sales tax from car purchases, not interest payments phased out for incomes above $250,000.

Tax incentives for companies Total: $51 billion

$15 billion: Allowing companies to use current losses to offset profits made in the previous five years, instead of two, making them eligible for tax refunds.
$13 billion: to extend tax credits for renewable energy production (until 2014).
$11 billion: Government contractors: Repeal a law that takes effect in 2012, requiring government agencies to withhold three percent of payments to contractors to help ensure they pay their tax bills. Repealing the law would cost $11 billion over 10 years, in part because the government could not earn interest by holding the money throughout the year.
$7 billion: Repeal bank credit: Repeal a Treasury provision that allowed firms that buy money-losing banks to use more of the losses as tax credits to offset the profits of the merged banks for tax purposes. The change would increase taxes on the merged banks by $7 billion over 10 years.
$5 billion: Bonus depreciation which extends a provision allowing businesses buying equipment such as computers to speed up its depreciation through 2009.

The entire thousand-page law is available online, and there's a pretty good summary chart here:
http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/ ... _0217.html

[Wise One]

I would ask you ... to point out one example in the last 150 years of a successful Keynesian recovery?

How about the recovery we are in right now?

I cannot and will not defend all actions taken by Bush/Obama's stimulus/TARP initiatives, and the results can be haggled over in their details, for example magnitude and fairness, but the following seems to be true:

Recent actions are Keynsian, government action in both fiscal and monetary spheres taken to alter general macroeconomic performance. They satisfy the technical criterion for success – changing the sign of GDP growth from minus to plus.

[fangz1956]

Lord have mercy!! You boys sure can flog a single point to death..........as you all appear to ignore the rest of the picture. What will it matter when our freedoms and civil liberties are all essentially gone? What will it matter when we can no longer challenge the government on secret policies and actions.........and public persecution of people who blow the whistle or attempt to print any kind of real truth? The true State of the Union goes far beyond this petty quibbling over the continued bail-out of the wealthiest and most powerful segments of society. What will it matter when the "war on terror" is finally and completely a real-life nightmare? Are we allowing ourselves to be set up as the next failed state?

Can you all, for just one minute, look at the rest of the picture and leave this petty bickering alone?? Drop all of the partisan BS clap-trap and step into reality for just one minute. Nah........asking you all to do that is like beating one's head against a brick wall. I think you all rather enjoy your myopic tunnel-vision.

“If you ever injected truth into politics you have no politics.”

Will Rogers (American entertainer, famous for his pithy and homespun humour, 1879-1935)