Unchecked Power

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Wise One
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Re: Unchecked Power

Postby Wise One » 2011 May 07 14:24

Hey, some people know how to tell a joke and others not so much.

It's all in the timing. :joker:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Sam
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Re: Unchecked Power

Postby Sam » 2011 May 08 07:57

What joke I did't see one -maybe its time for some democrat bashing or liberal bashing -that could be funny
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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Crux
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Here is some funny.

Postby Crux » 2011 May 08 10:41

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/snl-per ... dens-body/

This skit with The Little Mermaid is really FUN! Happy Mother's Day...
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

ParkerLongbaugh

Re: Unchecked Power

Postby ParkerLongbaugh » 2011 May 09 09:20

Image

Ok, I'll try. :wink2:

While I agree that critical thinking is sadly missing from most of our schools today, using examples from the right seems to be quite a stretch. Probably 80% of the administrators, "educators" and textbooks I'm familiar with have the exact failure of critical thinking that is described but have the slant of the exact opposite, including at the college level.

I hire people in some of the jobs I currently do, and the lack of critical thinking ability is readily apparent there. Even in "this economy", I usually have fewer than one in ten applicants who meet even the most basic hireability criteria. Very frustrating, and certainly not boding well for us as a nation.

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Crux
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I am sympathetic to the desires of LIBS.

Postby Crux » 2011 May 10 11:15

See the story of the Progressives who wish to split Arizona in TWO, so they can pursue their utopia. Now there are some problems here, but what it makes me think of is a basic Tea Party, Conservative, Libertarian, Classic Liberal ideal...

LESS GOVERNMENT on the FEDERAL level, and more REPRESENTATIVE government on the STATE level.

The design, which State-ists of all stripes (CERTAINLY DEMOCRATS, the very PARTY OF BIG GOVERNMENT), IGNORE,
is one of truly LIMITED Federal Government and all other powers to be left to the purview of the STATES. 50 demographically empathetic States, free to EXPERIMENT and seek solutions through a more representative form of governance...

Libs could then CONGREGATE say, in California, Illinois, New York, Massachusetts, and a couple others!!! :thumbup:

crux
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Wise One
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Re: Unchecked Power

Postby Wise One » 2011 Oct 30 10:10

This is fascinating.

If they insist on being nosy when they should back off, give them so much stuff they are overwhelmed. Maybe we should all do the same. With rivers of information, the system will break.

It reminds me of a serious analysis of our security classification system for documents. Beyond a certain point, classifying more and more "just to be safe" actually reduces security. If everything is classified then knowledge, communication and flexibility essential to to managing our security and competitiveness problems are destroyed. We only dig a huge hole for ourselves.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Coondog
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Re: Unchecked Power

Postby Coondog » 2011 Oct 31 15:43

Thanks a lot Wise One!

So....we can presume that linking with that article is likely to attract the attention of the FBI and associated minions of security, information and casual curiosity. Lovely!

What I really don't need is some officious suit asking me questions I don't have the mental capacity to answer coherantly. Like, "Where were you last Wednesday?" "What did you have for breakfast this morning?" or "Do you have an intent to harm on any persons in the U.S.?"

In case they're aready monitoring, the answers are, Don't remember, I forget and If by 'persons'', do you include corporations'?

Actually, I have no intentions at all with regard to Wednesdays, Breakfast or the Neo Robber Barons. And....it would be great to be monitored whereas at least someone would be able to document exactly where in the Walmart parking lot I left my vehicle. There are less constructive things the government could be doing.

Coondog :hiding2:

Not hiding.....just looking for that chewing gum I had earlier.

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Crux
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Panetta says...

Postby Crux » 2013 Feb 03 12:44

fangz1956 wrote:The politicians who are embracing the fallacy that "torture" led directly to the death of Osama do not deserve to be re-elected or even listened to on this subject.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2013/02 ... den-video/
...water boarding led to Osama.

There you go. What I said.

crux wrote:...getting Osama is a direct result of Obama FOLLOWING the Bush Middle East policies, much to the shagrin of some on the Left. Gitmo intelligence, even (oh gosh) WATERBOARDING, and RENDITION played a vital role.

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Crux
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Panneta says...no one cares...TSA then??

Postby Crux » 2013 Feb 20 10:30

So now no one cares. Waterboarding led to Bin Laden.
______________________________________________

Mother comforts her wheelchair bound child as Lamby is taken away for screening... The child cries. Mother must remove her 3 year old from the chair that it might be swabbed for explosives... "It is illegal to video tape..." the Authority Figure says. Mother says politely and correctly that it is not... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Ploe08a3Q#!

...you figure it out...

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Neck-aint-red
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Re: Panneta says...no one cares...TSA then??

Postby Neck-aint-red » 2013 Feb 20 11:59

crux wrote:So now no one cares. Waterboarding led to Bin Laden.
Bullshit.

crux wrote:Mother comforts her wheelchair bound child as Lamby is taken away for screening... The child cries.
And your point is ... what?

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Crux
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Re: Unchecked Power

Postby Crux » 2013 Feb 20 12:09

No, I miss spoke. Certainly folks care. You for example. Is waterboarding a known "terrorist", TORTURE? There you go.

I had commented on Fangz assertion:
fangz1956 wrote:The politicians (and others) who are embracing the fallacy that "torture" led directly to the death of Osama do not deserve to be re-elected or even listened to on this subject.


Relative to what I had asserted...

crux wrote:...getting Osama is a direct result of Obama FOLLOWING the Bush Middle East policies, much to the chagrin of some on the Left. Gitmo intelligence, even (oh gosh) WATER-BOARDING, and RENDITION played a vital role.


...and what Panetta confirmed was all... EIT and water-boarding WAS used to garner info that led to Osama. Even that movie that was snubbed got it right, is all.

On the TSA, are you not disturbed by the frisking of 3 year old physically miss-abled youth? The frisking of little old ladies?

Neck, Neck, Neck... The TSA methodology annoys at the very least and disturbs as well. Do you support expanding it's efforts to trains, toll roads, ferries, and buses?

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Buck Turgidson
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Re: Panneta says...no one cares...TSA then??

Postby Buck Turgidson » 2013 Feb 23 08:33

crux wrote:So now no one cares. Waterboarding led to Bin Laden.

Somebody who actually knows what he's talking about begs to differ:
ALI H. SOUFAN in the New York Times wrote:Torture, Lies and Hollywood

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Coondog
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Cough cough gag

Postby Coondog » 2013 Feb 25 16:50

The late and lamentable crux asks:
.....Is waterboarding a known "terrorist", TORTURE?

One answer to that would be, if it's not something you'd likely do to yourself at home in an inspired moment of perverted kinkiness, then, yes, it's probably torture!

Interesting qualification, though. Waterboarding a known 'terrorist'. Is waterboarding different if it's an 'unknown terrorist?'
Or just your average guy off the street?

I suspect if it's unpleasant enough that you think someone's going to tell you anything you want to know (or want to hear) if you do it to them, then, it's torture no matter who you do it to.

These intricacies are a fine distraction to the broader question of whether we, as a society, choose to embrace the civilized, enlightened and humanitarian ideals we would impose on others.....or if we're just really barbarians with finer wardrobes.

I've seen a lot of spy movies and when it comes to torture, I know one thing. The bad guy always talks,the good guy always gets away and the public never finds out. What the CIA does to somebody in one of those rare moments where the fate of the world is held in the balance.....well, so be it.

But when we fail to be appalled at such stuff, then we've lost any moral imperative we might think we have.

Coondog

@!#$%^@ Ben Affleck! :beatdead:

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fangz1956
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Re: Unchecked Power

Postby fangz1956 » 2013 Aug 12 10:27

The Suveillance Speech

....brought to you by none other than the flip-flopping Spin Doctor himself.


:shakeh:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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Coondog
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Re: Unchecked Power

Postby Coondog » 2013 Aug 12 10:44

It's really a shame that it has come to this. George Orwell warned us!

So.....we surrendered our privacy in overly irrational fear of terrorism. That cat is out of the bag and the likelyhood of cramming it back in is remote.

To be fair, it has had it's benefits. To be apathetic, the supposition of electronic privacy has always been a mythological concept in Coondog's perspective. It is, therefore, difficult to drum up outrage over this stuff. Always suspected them of doing it, anyway.

Of course, Coondog ain't misbehavin'!

And.......if it makes self appointed right wing militias and other domestic seditionous elements nervous, then all the more better!

Coondog :hiding2:

Don't watch television naked.........V-chips in TVs turn them into transmitters.

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Uji
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Re: Unchecked Power? I think not...

Postby Uji » 2013 Aug 12 10:54

"Unchecked power"? Huh...

-- Approved by both houses of Congress -- under two different party leaderships.
-- Approved by two presidents of different parties.
-- Approved by several different federal courts and their appointed representatives ...

You may not like it, but the only power it represents is of our Constitutionally elected government. It's not much of a government at the moment and the Constitution is not much help with the institutional dysfunction in Congress. But "unchecked power"? If so, it's the unchecked power of the American voter.

Personally, I have no problem with the surveillance when it is carried out lawfully, as it seems to have been. As long as it is, when the polity gets tired of it, they can elect people to change it.

(I disagree with the policy -- but that's another matter. Just because I don't like it doesn't make it corrupt or unjust.)

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fangz1956
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Re: Unchecked Power

Postby fangz1956 » 2013 Aug 12 11:12

Hmmmmm...since there is no topic title "Surveillance State", this seemed the most logical place to post the speech and its analysis by The Atlantic.

The FISA Court has apparently ruled the nefarious shenanigans of the NSA, et al as unconstitutional. The fact that it carries on in relative secrecy makes it "unchecked power" in my opinion.

I seriously doubt that there would be any sort of debate or questioning going on were it not for the courage of the likes of Snowden, Manning and others who have been (and are being) persecuted and prosecuted for blowing the whistle.

Soooooo.........prosecution of whistleblowers = Unchecked Power
the continued gathering of metadata = Unchecked Power
Congress ignoring the will of the people = Unchecked Power
a duplicitous President = Unchecked Power

I will agree that the voting public is largely ignorant. But we owe that fact to a lazy media who are more interested in which cocktail party they are invited to than in doing the tough job of adversarial journalism and holding the servants of the people accountable for their self-serving actions and backroom deals.

Unchecked Power? Absolutely.

:hail:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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Uji
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Re: Unchecked Power

Postby Uji » 2013 Aug 14 10:16

fangz1956 wrote:Snowden, Manning and others who have been (and are being) persecuted and prosecuted for blowing the whistle.

"Persecuted" for breaking the law? I don't understand...

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Wise One
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Re: Unchecked Power

Postby Wise One » 2013 Aug 14 10:41

Well, Uji, let's talk. Yes, under ordinary circumstances one does not think of action against lawbreakers as being "persecution." One usually thinks of it as "law enforcement."

But this situation is more nuanced.

For example, were Bull Connor and George Wallace simply doing their duty as enforcers of the law in their forceful, sometimes violence inspiring, actions against those breaking segregation laws? Or were they persecutors, contemptibly hiding under the cover of unjust and unconstitutional law?

My take on the Snowden case is that his actions are at least partially justifiable as speaking out in defense of Constitutional principles. In this case, as in Pentagon Papers and WikiLeaks, cases nobody is hurt, nobody dies, and the American people are not damaged. The only pain is felt by loathsome bureaucrats who would much prefer, thank you, to operate lawlessly in the dark.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Coondog
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The Law is a Human Institution

Postby Coondog » 2013 Aug 14 11:43

Civil Disobedience always has consequences.

Consequences, the magnitude of which needs must be understood, and more importantly accepted, are basically the whole point. If it was legal, everybody would be doing it!

Those in power will typically enforce the law to the extent desired. (ala George Wallace) So....the levying of consequences is as much benefit to the point of view and aspirations of one side as the other.

As Coondog sees it, the examples of Snowden and Manning surpass civil disobedience in that confidences and wider responsibilities were broken and ignored.

It's one thing to point out systematic inequities as pertains to governmental procedures and another to expose the specific content of otherwise classified information.

If we don't want the Chinese and the Ruskies and Abdul from Yemen to know stuff, then we certainly don't need to know it, either.

Coondog :bricks:

That's why we put sand in the litter box!