Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

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Uji
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Re: Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

Postby Uji » 2010 May 18 10:53

nudgewink wrote:...Every time this country has singled out a group of newly arrived immigrants for unjust punishment, the shame has echoed through history. Think of the Chinese and Irish, Catholics and Americans of Japanese ancestry. Children someday will study the Great Immigration Panic of the early 2000s, which harmed countless lives, wasted billions of dollars and mocked the nation’s most deeply held values.

Wonderful read, Nudgewink. "They're not one of us, they're one of them!" That's all it boils down to -- but that doesn't make it any easier to deal with.
Facts have no effect. The anti-immigrants simply reject reality and substitute their own -- a "reality" like Glen Beck's, one built upon simple-minded metaphorically "interpretations" of "the facts."

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Uji
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Anti-Immigrant Syllogism

Postby Uji » 2010 May 18 11:07

:thumbup: TRUE:
    All men are mortal.
    Socrates is a man.
    Therefore Socrates is mortal.
:nono: FALSE:
    All men are mortal.
    Socrates is mortal.
    Therefore Socrates is a man.
    (All men are mortal, but not all mortals are men.)

:police: FALSE:
    There are illegal immigrants.
    He is an immigrant.
    Therefore he is illegal.

:twisted: WORSE THAN FALSE or "The Arizona Solution"
    There are illegal immigrants.
    He appears to be an immigrant.
    Therefore, treat him as an illegal.

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Juggler
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Law and Border

Postby Juggler » 2010 May 29 16:15

Thank God there are still a few REAL PATRIOTS to protect us.


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Sam
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Re: Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

Postby Sam » 2010 Jun 04 09:18

Let’s say I break into your house

The operative word here is illegal.
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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Coondog
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Re: Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

Postby Coondog » 2010 Jun 04 14:07

The operative word here is illegal.

Yes, the key word IS illegal.......and the current situation demands "immigration" reform, as the influx (or invasion if you will) across our southern border is fostering extreme and ill founded opinions on both sides of the issue. Our insatiable desire for cheap labor and illicit drugs has come into conflict with our ethnocentric proclivities, adversely affecting both our wallets and cognitive sensibilities.

Probably our ingrained disdain for communism allows us to consider Cubans to be refugees, allowed to remain here by virtue of having set foot on American soil, while applying an inconsistent status to economic refugees from an impoverished but non-communist adjacent country. In this regard, the language barrier does not seem to be a defining factor.

Likely, it is the prospect of affording the benefits of government social programs such as medicare and social security which prevents us from invoking manifest destiny and simply taking over Mexico as a territory. After all, we import far more oil from them than from the Middle East.....and their southern border is shorter and more defensible than the one along the Rio Grande. The problem with drug lord violence will not abate, either way, until our archaic drug laws are reformed, but that's too logical an idea for even passing consideration.

The world is an ever changing environment. Populations ebb and flow. Presently, the prolific increase in the Hispanic population in the western hemisphere assures that, within 50 years, they will be the dominate species right here in the old US of A. Unless we start breeding like rabbits, this trend is likely to inevitably unfold. We can either decide to deal rationally with the issue or continue with the pulling of hair and gnashing of teeth that has characterized public attitudes for far too long.

I've been to Mexico. The people (generally) are nothing short of delightful. So are we....until we perceive our self interests are threatened. The Arizona Solution is a regrettable but understandable (if unconstitutional) reaction to frustration over an untenable situation. How implementation of reform and clarification of immigration law designed to address the current state of affairs is somehow inadvisable is beyond comprehension.

It's what I like to call the Blue State Syndrome: Keep your government a$$ out of our state, but we do expect you to fix our problems while we scream "No!" to every effort you attempt to undertake to fix it.

Its working for Bobby Jingle!

:hail: Coondog

See you in Tijuana

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historyforall
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Re: Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

Postby historyforall » 2010 Jun 04 14:14

The house article is a great example and it makes a lot of sense but it also ignores history like everything else. You must always remember we broke into someone else’s house first. This "house" was not just sitting here empty. Not only that once we broke in we built up trust and used it to take advantage of the situation until we kicked the homeowner out. So if you are ticked off at someone else breaking into our house you undermine it without acknowledging that we did the same thing. I am sure lots of natives to this land sat around going how the heck did it get this way. Why didn't we stop them when we could have? Someone surly must have proposed building a wall around the settlers.
I believe in the rights and freedoms of a person even when I don't support them on a moral or fundamental basis.

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Sam
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Re: Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

Postby Sam » 2011 Feb 07 10:31

Folks, got this in the email recently and agree with it a hundred precent.

I am a legal American citizen and I must show my ID when:
1. Pulled over by the police
2. Making purchases on my department store credit card.
3. When I show up for a doctor's appointment
4. When filling out a credit card or loan application
5. When applying for or renewing a driver's license or passport
6. When applying for any kind of insurance
7. When filing out college applications
8. When donating blood
9. When obtaining certain prescription drugs
10. When making some debit purchases, especially if I'm out of state.
11. When collecting a boarding pass for airline or train travel
I think there are more instances, but the pint is that we citizens of the USA are required to prove who we are nearly every day. Why should people who are here illegally be exempt.
I am for Arizona a hundred precent
Only in America could the people who believe in balancing the budget and sticking by the country's Constitution be thought of as
"extremists

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Sweetness 'n Light
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Re: Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

Postby Sweetness 'n Light » 2011 Feb 07 11:25

This is so right what you wrote sam and I think that crux is right that there really are more good patriotic people like us -brave to speak more now after that election.

I used to see illegal aileens everywhere when I could drive and it made me really mad when I see them driving just like they are as good as real Americans. And then after those accidents that were not my fault at all and they took away my license and wont even let me take the tests anymore then I know things got really bad. The illegal aileens and the liberals took over the government and they get to drive but they won't let good patriotic Americans like me drive anymore at all. I think it stinks is what, huh?

So they should round up all those illegal aileens and put them in a big bobbedwire fences real high and then ship them all away where they came from good riddance, huh? And when they come here to have babies just to get around the law then they ought to maybe have to hold in the babies until they get sent to some place over the border, that would be a smart way to teach them and if they have a lot of pain too bad cause they deserve it. I am disgusted with all the liberals giving lots of bleeding heart rights to those illegals when my husband cant even get jobs and they wont give me a drivers license so the whole thing stinks and we should all maybe do more of the second amendment remedy stuff and teach them a lesson once and for all, huh?

Our lawyers wont even talk to me anymore about the drivers license so maybe I can see BenKline for him to help cause he says good stuff about illegal aileens sometimes and might really help cause it's about time maybe.

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Crux
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Absolutely...

Postby Crux » 2011 Feb 07 16:34

Sam wrote:Folks, got this in the email recently and agree with it a hundred precent.

I am a legal American citizen and I must show my ID when:
1. Pulled over by the police
2. Making purchases on my department store credit card.
3. When I show up for a doctor's appointment
4. When filling out a credit card or loan application
5. When applying for or renewing a driver's license or passport
6. When applying for any kind of insurance
7. When filing out college applications
8. When donating blood
9. When obtaining certain prescription drugs
10. When making some debit purchases, especially if I'm out of state.
11. When collecting a boarding pass for airline or train travel
I think there are more instances, but the pint is that we citizens of the USA are required to prove who we are nearly every day. Why should people who are here illegally be exempt.
I am for Arizona a hundred precent


crux
crux identifies with American Principles. Personal Liberty, Respect and Limited government.
He is a classic liberal, a libertarian at heart, and a conservative in the classical sense...

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Juggler
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Re: Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

Postby Juggler » 2012 Aug 21 14:27

Image

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Wise One
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Re: Absolutely...

Postby Wise One » 2013 Oct 04 10:37

Finally, the states are coming to their senses, realizing how stupid it is to confuse immigration policy with safety policy on the roads. OF COURSE it is smarter to require that all drivers be tested and licensed, DUH!
California, as usual is leading the way, and other states will follow.

This forum has featured muddled thinking on this issue, remarks below.
crux wrote:
Sam wrote:Folks, got this in the email recently and agree with it a hundred precent. I am a legal American citizen and I must show my ID when:
  1. Pulled over by the police Wrong. Must show drivers license if driving, no other ID required.
  2. Making purchases on my department store credit card. Irrelevant, not required by government
  3. When I show up for a doctor's appointment Irrelevant, not required by government, unless using a government benefit like Medicare
  4. When filling out a credit card or loan application Irrelevant, not required by government
  5. When applying for or renewing a driver's license or passport Yes,need govt ID to get a govt ID.
  6. When applying for any kind of insurance Irrelevant, not required by government
  7. When filing out college applications Irrelevant, not required by government unless it is a government college
  8. When donating blood Yes, public safety.
  9. When obtaining certain prescription drugs Yes, public safety.
  10. When making some debit purchases, especially if I'm out of state. Irrelevant, not required by government
  11. When collecting a boarding pass for airline or train travel. Yes, public safety.
I think there are more instances, but the pint is that we citizens of the USA are required to prove who we are nearly every day. Irrelevant, not required by government. Private parties are free to require whatever they like, unless barred explicitly by law, but this should not be confused with compulsion by the government which freedom loving Americans normally resist.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Crux
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Re: Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

Postby Crux » 2013 Oct 04 13:29

To say in is IRRELEVANT is to miss completely, or obfuscate totally the point, which is that ID is required in every day life in a myriad of ways. Government issued ID. Which is why the claim of "vote suppression" due to the requirement of voter ID in most states is so silly...

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Kevsky
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Re: Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

Postby Kevsky » 2013 Oct 04 22:04

The house article is a great example and it makes a lot of sense but it also ignores history like everything else. You must always remember we broke into someone else’s house first. This "house" was not just sitting here empty. Not only that once we broke in we built up trust and used it to take advantage of the situation until we kicked the homeowner out. So if you are ticked off at someone else breaking into our house you undermine it without acknowledging that we did the same thing. I am sure lots of natives to this land sat around going how the heck did it get this way. Why didn't we stop them when we could have? Someone surly must have proposed building a wall around the settlers.

Actually, your argument supports those who are against illegal immigration. The fact that the Native Americans did not have the political, social or military ability to prevent the Europeans from becoming the dominant population in North America proves that a culture/society can and will be replaced if it allows itself to be demographically displaced. Demographics is destiny.

Is your statement than, that because the European/American society displaced the Native American society, it must in turn be displaced in order to "atone for it's sins"?

We, as the citizens of this country, have a right to determine who and how many immigrants can come in to this country. We have a right to demand our government curtail immigration into our country if we deem that it has a negative impact on us. Certainly, with our stagnant economy, falling middle class wages and high unemployment, we should have the right to determine that, in the interests of our own citizens' welfare, immigration be curtailed.

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Crux
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Welcome Kevsky...

Postby Crux » 2013 Oct 05 18:39

Simple enough truth. Nice.

crux

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Kevsky
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Re: Homeland Insecurity

Postby Kevsky » 2014 Jan 29 05:54

Illegals Have Earned The Right To Scam U.S. Citizens

1. You have come here illegally and purposely ignored U.S. law and violated this nations sovereignty.
2. You have colluded with unscrupulous employers to illegally take jobs that should be going to U.S. Citizens.
3. You have colluded with unscrupulous government employees and officials to receive government benefits that should be for U.S. citizens only.
4. You have forged documents to obtain benefits afforded only to U.S. citizens.
5. You have colluded with unscrupulous employers to illegally avoid paying taxes.
6. By your presence of millions of low-wage earners, you have contributed to the decline in the wages for the middle class U.S worker.
7. By your presence of millions of low-wage earners, you have contributed to the growing income inequality in the U.S.

Congratulations. We feel these attributes have earned you the right to be a U.S. citizen. Here is your citizenship papers and your voter registration. Please remember to vote Democrat.


The double think at work here is beyond belief. So on one hand he wants "border security" but on the other hand he says illegal alien invaders that are already here have a right to be here and that people who want to be citizens have a right to be citizens. So what is the difference between the illegal alien invaders already here and the rest of humanity that wants to be here, other than location? How can the head of the DHS say that border security is important while simultaneously advocating for citizenship for people that illegally crossed the border? I'm just in awe of the hypocrisy and double speak. In a sane country, such rhetoric from those charged with defending our sovereignty would be considered treason.

I expect soon, we will have the following headlines:

"The head of the DOJ states that criminals who have murdered and raped have earned the right to clemency if they have successfully avoided apprehension for 10 years".

"The head of the IRS states that tax evaders have earned the right to keep the money they have successfully evaded from the government".

"The head of the FBI states that bank robbers have earned the right to keep the money they have stolen".

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Wise One
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Re: Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

Postby Wise One » 2014 Jan 29 11:06

Kevsky wrote:We have a right to demand our government curtail immigration into our country if we deem that it has a negative impact on us. Certainly, with our stagnant economy, falling middle class wages and high unemployment, we should have the right to determine that, in the interests of our own citizens' welfare, immigration be curtailed.

Anybody who believes that the current economic difficulties of the United States have anything to do with immigrants is disconnected from reality.

Misbehavior and bad decisions by the most established and most affluent of American citizens are wholly responsible. Immigrants are, truly, scapegoats of the shamefully cynical far right.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Kevsky
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Re: Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

Postby Kevsky » 2014 Jan 29 13:41

Anybody who believes that the current economic difficulties of the United States have anything to do with immigrants is disconnected from reality.

To believe that 11 million (and probably many more) unskilled laborers illegally working in the U.S. does not reduce wages for the working people of the U.S. and does not increase unemployment is to ingnore economic reality and the laws of supply and demand.

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Wise One
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Re: Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

Postby Wise One » 2014 Jan 29 15:02

The supply/demand argument is always valid. The undocumented alien estimate at 11 million (not all are workers) is about 3.6% of the total population of 305 million, about half of whom work.

Under the presumption that immigrants are more likely to work for low wages (true?), yes supply does influence labor price. How much is the realm of argument by economists.

But I'm pretty certain that the economy's loss of $Trillions in recent economic setbacks had very little to do with poor people's wages, citizen or immigrant. It had everything to do with lax financial regulation, wild speculation, and off-shoring of manufacturing, lowering of taxes for the wealthy, and the withering of unions.

These grew mostly out of the decisions and activities of the most affluent among us.

Raising the minimum wage to $10 or so would help to balance things more equitably, but those same affluent "deciders" will fight it until their last breath.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Coondog
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Re: Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

Postby Coondog » 2014 Jun 24 21:10

Dear Congress,

Our borders are being assaulted by refugees........ children seeking asylum from Central American countries where conditions are what we call in dawgpatch really, really bad. They're not coming here to steal our jobs. They're coming here to have a life.

This is not a matter of boarder security. Security is stopping and rounding them up at the boarder.

Now What?

We can show them our darker side, treat them like criminals, arrange to crush their delusions of safety and happiness and arrange for their eventual return to hell after sheltering them in kennels like stray dawgs for a time as our own wayward children (you) pout and stamp and soil diapers while deciding their fate.

Or.....

Cowards that you are, perhaps the opportunity has presented itself for you to actually stand up for the principles those Founding Fathers you so adore, envisioned.

Now, Coondog knows that the boarder states, due to misplaced ethnocentrism or because somebody's great, great granddaddy died at the Alamo, will never succumb to comprehensive immigration reform at the federal level. Never going to happen. So, let's explore States Rights, near and dear to many of your cold hearts, for however long your attention span can maintain attachment to a singular issue.

What if individual states were able to decide, independently, whether or not they wish to formulate a methodology for sponsorship for refugees? What if those churches we're supposed to count on and social welfare organizations and just plain caring citizens, as well as state governments, took upon themselves the responsibility for this sponsorship whereas these people might assimilate, under supervision and with charity and decency, into a society that resembles the one they expected to find after such an arduous journey?

Even the meanest, most despicable members might vote for a measure that allows them to slough off the responsibility to somebody else more willing to deal with it. And these children, thus relieved of the perpetual fear for their lives, may actually prove to be more amicable and receptive of social norms than your own privileged, uncontrollable brats.

Think about it. A humanitarian gesture may prove to be a positive example to our own population, currently bent on violence and inhumanity, and to the world in general. You may even dispel some of the self loathing you must surely feel given your history of dysfunction and failure.

Hopefully you will afford some due consideration to these humble and, hopefully, helpful suggestions.

Coondog :typ:

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Wise One
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Re: Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

Postby Wise One » 2014 Jun 25 10:09

I like.

Yours is out-of the-dawghouse thinking that ought to make xenophobic, bible-thumping, states-rightsers scratch their mange in contemplation.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."