Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

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jjordan
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Immigrants

Postby jjordan » 2008 Feb 06 12:24

Beckonwood,
Couldn't agree with you more. Great quote from Howard. I couldn't have said it any better myself.

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Wise One
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Immigrants

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 07 19:44

John Howard, in policy matters, is a clone of George W. Bush. He's not as stupid, but he IS just as evil.

Thankfully, the electorate just voted him out, evidence that the Australian public learns faster than the American public.

His narrow-minded, bigoted blather will be rejected by people of good will. And, of course, it will always have its adherents -- sad but true.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

jjordan
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Immigrants

Postby jjordan » 2008 Feb 07 20:50

I don't think its that narrow-minded to ask immigrants to adapt to their new culture without placing unreasonable demands upon the country they are entering.
John Howard and George Bush may be many things, but I wouldn't include "stupid" among them.

Wise One,
Would you be one of the "good will" people?

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Wise One
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Immigrants

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 08 00:52

I have no problem with asking, and attempting to persuade using positive arguments, of which there are many. I have big problems with compelling, or attempting to shame, or exclude, or ban people for free choices that they make in our free society.

I stand by my opinion that John Howard is a smart guy with evil inclinations, while George W. is the dimmest of dim bulbs with similar, and similarly evil, inclinations. The Aussies threw Howard out, and I only wish we'd been smart enough to deliver the same treatment to George W.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

jjordan
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Immigrants

Postby jjordan » 2008 Feb 08 13:23

Shame? Ban? Exclude? Compel? Is that what's going on? That's not the message I gleaned from Howard's comment. One might make the case in some instances that the immigrants are trying to compel, shame, or coerce the government to provide society they want. Just doesn't seem unreasonable to me suggesting that those wishing to enter another culture take some (if not all) the responsibility in adapting to it.

It seems that the melting pot theory, as it has evolved, places greater demands upon the government to concede than those seeking to join it. Just appears a little out of balance to me.

jjordan
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Immigrants

Postby jjordan » 2008 Feb 09 12:07

Maybe I missed something. Who said anything about hating and intolerance? Who said anything about being superior? I think if I decided to live in Iran then I wouldn't make demands on how the government should adapt its policies and/or programs to fit my Christian perspective. I wouldn't find it hateful for the government to ask me to accept traditions of its culture before I entered. I don't know what Jesus would do. He said give to Caesar what's Caesar's. Wouldn't that be supporting a corrupt, occupying, imperialistic government? If one couldn't support corrupt governments, then one couldn't support any of them. How does this conversation turn into bashing the Christians?

I think Jesus demanded conformance to his standards for sure. Does asking for conformity to standards translate into "espousing hate?"


"John Howard and Tony Blair..............the boot licking lap dogs of King George." This sounds more like hate and intolerance than asking immigrants to accept the new culture they are entering. If we truly are tolerant, why can't we tolerate a long established country asking those who enter to adapt? Perhaps Howard and others who share the same sentiments could express them in a little more sensitive way than he did. I'll admit that. His tone, however, doesn't change the reasonability of his statements, in my opinion.

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Wise One
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Not Everybody is Xenophobic

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 10 14:41

It is so, so refreshing to find that there still exist some people of intelligence will not jump on the immigrant-hating, "different"-people-excoriating, "why-won't-they-be-just-like-me" bigots that have lately risen everywhere, including on this Forum. So many people believe only in a freedom to conform and become clones of themselves ... woe be unto people who dare to follow their own star.

http://www.alternet.org/workplace/76076/

I appreciate Jim Hightower's point of view on this, and think he has found some of the truth, even if some of his opinions are not quite my own.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

jjordan
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xenaphobia?

Postby jjordan » 2008 Feb 11 13:18

Wise One,
I still am bewildered at how the previous comments are "immigrant hating" or excoriating. You really hurt my feelings with the' "why-won't-they-be-just-like-me" ' bigots that have lately risen everywhere, including on this Forum." Nobody said you can't follow your own "star." Nobody said that our goal should be clone production. In fact, it sounded like to me that there existed freedom to be who you wanted to be-probably the reason that countries like the U.S. and Australia are having to address the immigrant situation. Nobody said you can't worship your own God or eat your own food.

It doesn't translate as hate to me in placing a greater responsiblity upon those newly entering a country to adapt than the country itself. I don't see this as necessarily exclusive from Christian principles either. When in Rome...

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Wise One
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Immigrants

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 11 16:38

Nothing personal, jjordan ... it does offend me that Republicans seem all to be striving to outdo each other verbally as bashers of immigrants, legal and illegal.

As the referenced article points out, this is a recurrent theme in American politics, ebbing and flowing through the decades. It seems to be especially virulent just now, aimed against Mexicans (3/4 of immigration) and muslims.

Each time this nasty streak emerges, it targets "the different", whining that they must be more like "us" -- speak my language, adhere to my religion, restrict those with skin not the same color as mine, keep the slant eyes away, jump higher hurdles to get public documents and permissions, etc. At different times, it has been Irish, Catholics, Italians, Germans, Jews, Negroes, Japanese, Chinese.

Right now it is Mexicans. I'm pretty disgusted to watch us emulate the USSR and Israel in building fences to keep people in or out, when better methods to achieve public goals exist. The bigots whine publicly over anything, even as our Canadian neighbor handles dozens of languages and cultures in relative harmony.

I so look forward to the day when narrow minded prejudice abates, when it is no longer fashionable to blame imaginary troubles on scapegoats, reminiscent of Germany in the '30s. I yearn for the return of American kindliness and tolerance.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

harleygrl35

Immigrants

Postby harleygrl35 » 2008 Feb 15 11:05

beckonwood wrote:We used to be a melting pot but no longer. Now all who come to the US retain their own culture etc and don't try to become Americans. While I understand the need for keeping one's own cultural identies I also believe it's important to at least try and become a part of the American culture. I believe in our quest to be politically correct we are forgeting the bigger pictuure which is to adapt to the country a person is choosing to live in. If for instance our country is so bad then why do these immigrants continually choose to come live here. It's because they like what they see. America is made up of my cultures from the past who choose to speak English, follow the laws while keeping some of their own traditions. If I went to live in another country and choose that country for life, I would expect to try and become a part of that community.

I like what Howard said and agree with it one hundred percent.


I live in Buena Vista, and let me tell ya, it's not happening here. Instead the residents here better get with the program of the people who are moving to this town. They are not expected to try to become part of the community here, instead we are expected to conform to their beliefs.

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Wise One
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Melting ...

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 15 12:20

beckonwood wrote:We used to be a melting pot but no longer. Now all who come to the US retain their own culture etc and don't try to become Americans. While I understand the need for keeping one's own cultural identities I also believe it's important to at least try and become a part of the American culture. I believe in our quest to be politically correct we are forgetting the bigger picture which is to adapt to the country a person is choosing to live in. If for instance our country is so bad then why do these immigrants continually choose to come live here. It's because they like what they see. America is made up of my cultures from the past who choose to speak English, follow the laws while keeping some of their own traditions. If I went to live in another country and choose that country for life, I would expect to try and become a part of that community.
I would (and did when I lived in another country, if not mastering the language very well.)
I suspect, but cannot prove, that your notion of America as a melting pot is an idealized, somewhat Disney-fied and filtered view of history. It is true, and always has been, that some immigrants work hard and skillfully to "melt", and that others by reason of inclination or intelligence or age, do not. It has always been true that older people tend to adapt slowly, while younger people adapt quickly, and that the passage of one or two generations of time accomplishes 98% adaptation in every case.
I've seen the BEST adaptation in my own family. My son's wife was born in America to Vietnamese immigrants. Grandpa is terrible at English, Mom and Dad are bilingual and function perfectly in both American and Vietnamese cultures, and the kids are more American then Vietnamese while also speaking English and Vietnamese, and honoring traditional family customs. The kids have attained a truly amazing level of professional accomplishment in every case.

harleygrl35 wrote:I live in Buena Vista, and let me tell ya, it's not happening here. Instead the residents here better get with the program of the people who are moving to this town. They are not expected to try to become part of the community here, instead we are expected to conform to their beliefs.
The natives felt the same way when Europeans arrived in North America.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

harleygrl35

Re: Melting ...

Postby harleygrl35 » 2008 Feb 15 16:37

Wise One wrote:
harleygrl35 wrote:I live in Buena Vista, and let me tell ya, it's not happening here. Instead the residents here better get with the program of the people who are moving to this town. They are not expected to try to become part of the community here, instead we are expected to conform to their beliefs.
The natives felt the same way when Europeans arrived in North America.


Does this mean at some point in the future I can move to Utah, build casino's and rake in LOADS of money? Cool :cool:

jjordan
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Immigrants

Postby jjordan » 2008 Feb 16 22:33

Wise One,
I finished licking my wounds. The "bigots on this forum" comment kind of hurt. I must say how impressed I am with your photo-shopping skills, however. That is one scary picture you manufactured.

I'll admit the whole immigration issue creates a conflict of interest for the majority of Americans whose ancestors were natives to other lands. Its a complicated issue for sure, but one that shouldn't be ignored in my opinion. Knowing where to draw "gracious" lines in the sand (literally sometimes) presents great potential for disagreement. One things for sure, the manipulation of this issue by both parties for strictly political purposes ensures that probably nothing of real substance will happen in the near future. I don't know what the answers are, but I maintain my original point about the comments Howard made that Beckonwood cited. It seems quite reasonable to me that anyone who seeks to make their home in an alien culture bear the brunt of the burden for adapting to it. I don't understand how one could construe that statement as hateful of bigoted. Of course, I suppose that depends on how we define "adapt," though doesn't it?

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Wise One
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Immigrants

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 17 00:06

Thanks for your kind comment, jjordan, on my Photoshop skill. I admit it - I take outrageous pleasure from visually distorting the world using that amazing tool.

On your suggestion, I re-read my posting, and blush in shame. A "tip of the slung" let fly too-careless use of the word bigot, in a way that might imply it was directed at Forum members. I apologize for carelessness -- what I said is not what I meant, even as I acknowledge that is no excuse for my sloppiness. Yes, I tend to impute bigoted roots to a strident chorus rising around the country against brown people vizzout zare paperszs, and against men whose women wear scarves. But I must always assume that participants on this Forum speak from conviction and a weighing of the facts as they see them.

That said, I'm irritated at what appears to be a propaganda campaign egging on the chorus. Fox TV's Hannity and O'Reilly, Glenn Beck, AM radio's Limbaugh, and CNN's Dobbs flog this issue in ways that seem simplistic, bigoted and opportunistic, scapegoating an underclass. Too many people are picking up their words uncritically and repeating them. I've seen this stuff my whole life, as far back as the era preceding Das Dritte Reich, and don't like it.

:wink: PS, not my work, but pretty neat stuff. :wink:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Wise One
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Bigoted? Provincial? Intolerant?

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 26 11:00

Use your own best words for characterizing Venezuela's Hugo Chavez on this one.

It seems analogous to Adolf Hitler's bigoted nationalistic attempt to purge all "non-German" words from use in Germany.

When I see the same tendencies emerge in my own country, insulting non-English speakers or trying to compel use of English, my skin crawls and the hair on the back of my neck stands up.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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fangz1956
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Immigrants

Postby fangz1956 » 2008 Feb 26 14:06

It smacks of the creation of a 'pure' society......one that practices exclusion and bigotry. It's amazing how people will talk the talk of "think globally" or "it's a global society" out of one side of their mouth while screaming "not in my backyard" out of the other. I cringe and delete when the bigoted e-mails land in my inbox from friends who are narrow-minded and are busy wrapping themselves in the flag.

There are too many issues tied to this one to judge Chavez one way or the other. Knowing the history of Imperialist America, I can almost understand the reasoning behind his move in this direction. And while it is a global society......one world.....I can understand the aversion and resistance to American influence and money-grubbing. America is notorious for wiping out indigenous peoples and their cultures in order to pillage and plunder and lay claim to the natural resources of another country. Hmmmm......but to eliminate the use of English words is creepy and makes my skin crawl......just as the loud shouts against the use of Spanish in this country does.


:2cent:
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

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Juggler
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Immigrants

Postby Juggler » 2008 Feb 26 15:01

Indeed!

:clap: There's usually a scoundrel behind the curtain in every quest for "purity."

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Wise One
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Immigrants

Postby Wise One » 2008 Feb 26 16:23

Call me stubborn, but I think Chavez is dead wrong on this one, Beckonwood.

:craz: BTW, he's the leftie - not us :craz:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Amy Probenski
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Damn Foreigners!

Postby Amy Probenski » 2008 Feb 28 09:11

Here's a thought. The Constitution is pretty good but maybe it is high time to change one little feature that is way out of date, the requirement that only a "natural born citizen" can become President.

It made some sense at the birth of the United States, when the population had many who were born in Britain, and whose allegiances were often greater to Britain than to this new country. It makes no sense now.

For example, the following Republicans might have an interest in such a change:

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PattyPink
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Re: Immigrants, Legal and Illegal

Postby PattyPink » 2008 Feb 28 18:11

Unless your ancestors were standing on the shore waving to the ships when the first settlers stepped ashore...your family was considered immigrants. My ancestors came here from Germany in the 1740's and settled in the Lexington area. I have a great uncle who came from Spain in the early 1920's and settled in West Virginia where he worked in the coal mines. He taught his children that in American anything is possible if they were willing to work hard.

I don't have a problem with people coming to America to MAKE a better life. I do have a problem with people coming to America to FIND a better life. This is the land of golden opportunity for anyone who is willing to work hard. But if someone comes here to live off the system....there is a plane, ship, or train leaving every day and I will contribute $50 to a ticket to send them back to where they came from.
Don't ask if you don't want to know.


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