Is America becoming a Third World Country?

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Wise One
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Re: Is America becoming a Third World Country?

Postby Wise One » 2013 Aug 23 19:55

Bingo. As I suspected, it's Heartland Institute crapola.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Crux
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So, WHO is the Heartland Institute anyway???

Postby Crux » 2013 Aug 23 20:27

3 Forbes articles. Hmmmm....
___________________________

Anyway. How you get there is irrelevant. But we will have a look. :tiphat:
______________________________________________________

http://heartland.org/experts

I looked it up. Thanks AO. The list of experts on the site is interesting. I like how you demonize, minimize and obfuscate.

You can't argue with religion...

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Coondog
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Re: Is America becoming a Third World Country?

Postby Coondog » 2013 Aug 23 20:37

Meteorologist Joe Bastard: Blaming Turbulent Weather On Global Warming and some Extremist Nonsense

Mr. Bastard’s reputation for bold and accurate weather forecasts has landed him interviews on numerous major television programs, including Fox News Live, the O’Reilly Factor, The Muppet Show, Imus in the Morning, and Dancing with the Stars to name but a few. Many companies across a multitude of carbon producing industries use his anal ytical services which correlate similarities between current and hysterical weather patterns to pervert likely degenerates.

Change a word or two here and there and this article smacks of legitimacy.

Coondog :knife: Chief editor, canine division.

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Crux
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Re: Is America becoming a Third World Country?

Postby Crux » 2013 Aug 24 15:55

coondog wrote:
Change a word or two here and there and this...smacks of legitimacy.

Coondog :knife: Chief editor, canine division.


Loonnog, Grief editor, Asinine Division? :angel5:

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Coondog
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Re: Is America becoming a Third World Country?

Postby Coondog » 2013 Aug 24 20:57

The mission of the Heartland Institute is to discover, develop, and promote free-market solutions to social and economic problems.


Promote free-market solutions to social and economic problems?

Free market solutions?

Solutions?

Trying to fathom exactly what free market solutions they're talking about.

Coondog :hum:

Seems like a ridiculous concept........eh?

A free market explaination that, while the polar ice caps are melting into oblivion, it's really due to Global Cooling

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Crux
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U 2?

Postby Crux » 2013 Aug 24 22:15

Clown. You confused? Free market capitalism got you in a funk? Let the famous BONO straighten you out!

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... 3/aid-bono
________________________________________________________________

On a side note, the killers of "Shorty", a decorated 89 year old WWII Vet in Spokane Washington, have been identified.
You betcha... They could have been future Democrat voters but were nabbed in a grand "voter suppression" scheme...


http://www.khq.com/story/23225525/suspe ... vetbeating

Seriously. No one can tell me they were likely CAPITALISTS. OK, clowndog can warp his mind into such contortions.

I mean no NORMAL person...

crux :angel5:

Just an Angel

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Wise One
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Re: U 2?

Postby Wise One » 2013 Aug 25 12:13

crux wrote:Free market capitalism got you in a funk? Let the famous BONO straighten you out!
Bono wrote:Capitalism takes more people out of poverty than aid.

This is what they do. They attack people who favor parts of a social safety net, attacking an argument that nobody made.The technique is called "Straw man argument".

Of course free markets are wonderfully productive and most everybody supports them. But they do not solve every problem, so that's why we step in with supplementary mechanisms where capitalism fails.

:coffee:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

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Crux
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King of the Straw Man, The Kettle AO

Postby Crux » 2013 Aug 26 08:47

No one, including crux is against the social safety net.

Your whole assertion that I am is a fine example of a straw man argument. :naughty:

Seriously. You really have to try harder AO. In everything there is a balance. We need for example, an understanding of what stifles capitalism and what encourages it. We need family structure that is strong and cohesive. We need APPROPRIATE government. I think that for those of us who are aware that the Federal Bureaucracy is bloated and wasteful, we see the need to draw back from the current model.

Only a small portion of social safety net monies that flow through the Federal Government actually get to the family living below the poverty level.

It is abundantly clear that there are too many big fans of D.C. redistribution. AO is a Chief among Chiefs of Cheer-leading, in my estimation...

crux

"Appropriate perspective."


We could eliminate entirely whole Departments of Bureaucracy in D.C.
The States are quite capable of managing...

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nudgewink
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Re: King of the Straw Man, The Kettle AO

Postby nudgewink » 2013 Aug 26 11:18

crux wrote:It is abundantly clear that there are too many big fans of D.C. redistribution.

EVERYBODY is a redistributionist. Republicans, from the poor to the rich. Democrats, the reverse.

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Coondog
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Re: Is America becoming a Third World Country?

Postby Coondog » 2013 Aug 26 17:08

The States are quite capable of managing.....

No....they are not! States are capable of state self interest.

Central government is essential for issues of universal application and, are by nature, bloated in some form or fashion.
The nature of that bloat is debatable, depending on what one's world view happens to consist of.

There is a prevailing attitude, particularly among certain sectors, that, 'If I don't need it, nobody else should have it!'
Which brings up the issue of paying taxes.

Why should a childless couple have to pay the same tax rate (or less) than someone with 5 children in school?

Why does the government spend my tax money on roads when I don't drive?

Why is my tax money being spent on climate change research when I don't believe in climate change?

Why is the government paying for abortions (it isnt, but that doesn't matter)?

Nobody wants the government to do anything that they don't have an inherent self interest in.

Some people realize that they are not the center of the galaxy and communal imperatives extend beyond their own personal and often selfish perspectives. Some people don't!!!!

As corrupt and self centered and useless as the congress is, state governments are, if less visible, worse.

If an example is needed, seek no further than the almost instantaneous disoloution of voting parody initiated by the states in the wake of the supreme court decision to allow them unrestrained leave to express the evil that lurks deep within their worm infested hearts.

Coondog :pat:

If we're going to get rid of federal programs that really don't work........first, Defund the House of Representatives!

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Crux
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Hopeless Task

Postby Crux » 2013 Aug 30 08:33

nudgewink wrote:EVERYBODY is a redistributionist. Republicans, from the poor to the rich. Democrats, the reverse.


Wow. :tiphat:

It really is a monumental task to educate one's self. Auntie Auntie Auntie... :shakeh:

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Bigbux Stogeychomper
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Re: Is America becoming a Third World Country?

Postby Bigbux Stogeychomper » 2013 Oct 13 11:25

I feel very sad for Europeans who have to live in a world of Hell, rather than in our oh so exceptional 'murca.


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Crux
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The Leftists ALTER EGO?

Postby Crux » 2013 Oct 13 14:58

Feeling better now? HATER? :dontknow: I don't even get your point. Is this impromptu crowd pleasing orchestral effort in a European Square evidence of 'murica's backwardsness?

If you are just popping into the Forum to see what is of interest you will witness a near daily event. The Leftist and the country they hate, 'murica. America. I would invite you to stay a while and participate but you will have to consider if you have the stomach for the fight.


Have a good day.

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Kevsky
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Re: Is America becoming a Third World Country?

Postby Kevsky » 2013 Oct 19 08:12

Coondog states

Central government is essential for issues of universal application and, are by nature, bloated in some form or fashion.
The nature of that bloat is debatable, depending on what one's world view happens to consist of.


Agreed. Government bureaucracies always become bloated. So would it not be a natural inclination for reasons of efficiency to attempt to limit government to only essential functions?

Coondog states,

There is a prevailing attitude, particularly among certain sectors, that, 'If I don't need it, nobody else should have it!'
Which brings up the issue of paying taxes.

Why should a childless couple have to pay the same tax rate (or less) than someone with 5 children in school?

Why does the government spend my tax money on roads when I don't drive?

Why is my tax money being spent on climate change research when I don't believe in climate change?

Why is the government paying for abortions (it isnt, but that doesn't matter)?

Nobody wants the government to do anything that they don't have an inherent self interest in.

Some people realize that they are not the center of the galaxy and communal imperatives extend beyond their own personal and often selfish perspectives. Some people don't!!!!


So now the determination of one’s altruism is how much one is willing to be taxed by the government. Those who want to have the freedom to use the fruits of their labor as they see fit are self-centered and selfish and those who are most apt to want to have a communal "money pot" are the paragons of virtue.

Let's speak of two others attitudes regarding taxes and see how they compare.

Why should I have to work and pay taxes? Even though I could work, I can choose not to and qualify for government assistance and live a comfortable existence. Why is this wrong? I am not stealing from anyone.

Does this attitude warrant the same derision as the attitudes you reflected? If not, why? Is this attitude not selfish? Or would the person with this attitude likely vote in the correct manner and have the correct attitude towards larger government?

I have a government job. I make twice as much as a person in the private sector who performs a similar occupation as mine. I have a top-notch pension which most in private industry do not have. I also have low cost medical insurance provided to me by the government. I can perform a sub-standard job and keep my job because my public sector union protects me. However, our employee’s Union is preparing to demand higher wages and increased benefits. I am told members of Congress want to decrease our wages and benefits. Why are they such haters? Why can’t we just raise taxes to pay for better wages and benefits for me?

Is this a selfish perspective? Would it compare to the taxpayer’s selfish concern to keep the money he has earned? Or again, would the person with this attitude likely have the correct political beliefs whereby we would not have the standard to judge?

Just food for thought.

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Coondog
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Re: Is America becoming a Third World Country?

Postby Coondog » 2013 Oct 21 12:16

Kev,

Your first premise is off: No one lives a comfortable existence on government welfare. Unless you're a corporation, welfare provides scant subsistence.

Your second premise is also off: Government workers do not typically make twice as much as similar jobs in the private sector.

The answers would be NO! to the first and Huh? to the second.

Ask me another question

Coondog :tiphat:

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Crux
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Be the change and big up...

Postby Crux » 2013 Oct 21 12:51

coondog wrote:Kev,
No one lives a comfortable existence on government welfare. Unless you're a corporation, welfare provides scant subsistence.


Two observations. First, for anyone who has traveled in the third world, or paid attention in the first world, people are able to live a comfortable existence, with or without GOVERNMENT WELFARE. Secondly, "Welfare" for too many does in fact allow folks to live a comfortable existence in out society. It often augments an I-phone, TV, beer and every other one of life's needs and wants. I have known, personally, too many capable people who TAKE ADVANTAGE of what is out there on the welfare menu. Food stamps, disability, handicapped tags on their car, medical assistance, school lunches, tuition assistance for "poor" folks who work for cash, pay no taxes and game the system that their kids can get cheaper tuition, housing assistance and a lay about lifestyle. I have seen it all... I have relatives, have worked with others, have had neighbors who fit this description of "those who live a comfortable existence on government welfare".

Big up 'dog...

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Coondog
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Re: Is America becoming a Third World Country?

Postby Coondog » 2013 Oct 21 15:11

Yeah?

Well.....as we cast our rheumy gaze around the wide, wide world, we can find examples of just about anything we want to project as universal truths.

Clearly, crux knows some unsavory types.

But.......

Coondog does not call $725 a month for a family - disabled husband with a small child and a pregnant wife living it up high on the hog. After rent, utilities & groceries....one supposes they might vacation in the Hamptons?

Not attempting to cite any universal truths, here, just identifying one aspect of the legitimacy of social responsibility when it comes to our fellow citizens. Citizens who, by the way, are as American as anybody, but weren't privileged enough or lucky enough to be in a position to demonize and demean less fortunate members of society.

There, but for the grace of God....................

Coondog :angel5:

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Kevsky
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Re: Is America becoming a Third World Country?

Postby Kevsky » 2013 Oct 24 07:22

I stated

Let's speak of two others attitudes regarding taxes and see how they compare.

Why should I have to work and pay taxes? Even though I could work, I can choose not to and qualify for government assistance and live a comfortable existence. Why is this wrong? I am not stealing from anyone.


Coondog Stated

Your first premise is off: No one lives a comfortable existence on government welfare. Unless you're a corporation, welfare provides scant subsistence.


Actually you are wrong. "Comfortable" is a relative term. If you can choose not to work and receive housing and food, you are living a "comfortable existence". And yes, a combination of welfare programs do provide for this. Many people have to work just to have a “comfortable existence”. They do not lack the ethics allowing them to decide not to work.

http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2013/08/ ... pays-more/


I Stated
I have a government job. I make twice as much as a person in the private sector who performs a similar occupation as mine. I have a top-notch pension which most in private industry do not have. I also have low cost medical insurance provided to me by the government. I can perform a sub-standard job and keep my job because my public sector union protects me. However, our employee’s Union is preparing to demand higher wages and increased benefits. I am told members of Congress want to decrease our wages and benefits. Why are they such haters? Why can’t we just raise taxes to pay for better wages and benefits for me?

Is this a selfish perspective? Would it compare to the taxpayer’s selfish concern to keep the money he has earned? Or again, would the person with this attitude likely have the correct political beliefs whereby we would not have the standard to judge?


Coondog States
Your second premise is also off: Government workers do not typically make twice as much as similar jobs in the private sector.


Whether or not Government workers make twice as much or not is irrelevant. In fact, in many circumstances Government workers may make less than their private sector counterparts. I was giving an example of a single hypothetical circumstance. But for you I will revise:

I have a government job. I make more than a person in the private sector who performs a similar occupation as mine. I have a top-notch pension which most in private industry do not have. I also have low cost medical insurance provided to me by the government. I can perform a sub-standard job and keep my job because my public sector union protects me. However, our employee’s Union is preparing to demand higher wages and increased benefits. I am told members of Congress want to decrease our wages and benefits. Why are they such haters? Why can’t we just raise taxes to pay for better wages and benefits for me?

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/chicag ... -students/

Is this a selfish perspective? Would it compare to the taxpayer’s selfish concern to keep the money he has earned? Or again, would the person with this attitude likely have the correct political beliefs whereby we would not have the standard to judge?

I stated
Why should I have to work and pay taxes? Even though I could work, I can choose not to and qualify for government assistance and live a comfortable existence. Why is this wrong? I am not stealing from anyone.

Does this attitude warrant the same derision as the attitudes you reflected? If not, why? Is this attitude not selfish? Or would the person with this attitude likely vote in the correct manner and have the correct attitude towards larger government?


Coondog stated
The answers would be NO!


Simple enough. You do not think that a person who can work but elects not to and than chooses to go on government assistance is not selfish and that this situation does not warrant the same derision as you have towards people who question how their taxes are spent. This speaks volumes. A society cannot continue to exist if its ethics and morals allow for an ever-increasing number of its able bodied citizens to decide not to work and to decide to live off the work of its ever decreasing number of productive citizens. It is not good for either party to exist in that situation.

Coondog does not call $725 a month for a family - disabled husband with a small child and a pregnant wife living it up high on the hog. After rent, utilities & groceries....one supposes they might vacation in the Hamptons?


You are either unintentionally missing the point, or purposely avoiding the point. Neither Crux or myself is questioning disability payments to someone who is legitimately disabled. And really, do you not think, if we were more apt to decline benefits to those who could work for themselves, we would be in a much better position to give more to those who are legitimately in need (such as the example you cited above)?

Coondog stated
Not attempting to cite any universal truths, here, just identifying one aspect of the legitimacy of social responsibility when it comes to our fellow citizens. Citizens who, by the way, are as American as anybody, but weren't privileged enough or lucky enough to be in a position to demonize and demean less fortunate members of society.


Cite any example where I have demonized and demeaned less fortunate members of society.

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Coondog
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Re: Is America becoming a Third World Country?

Postby Coondog » 2013 Oct 25 11:55

Whether or not Government workers make twice as much or not is irrelevant


Isn't it? The hypothetical proffered as the basis for argument is irrelevant?

Coondog has neither time or inclination to parse lengthy diatribes in an attempt to discover what is relevant or not.

The insinuation is that government should not be in the business of affording assistance to people because some people take advantage.

Neither Crux or myself is questioning disability payments to someone who is legitimately disabled.


You say that Coondog is missing the point. Exactly!

Are the complaints merely that some people are abusing a system? Is that all?

All government programs are abused by somebody. Just ask your heroes at Exxon!

Somehow, the impression was conveyed that the whole program needed to be cut. That has been the attitude of the people elected by those who wave the bisected snake flag. Across the board cuts.

Across the board cuts do not differentiate between those who legitimately receive benefits and the relatively small percentage who may fall into a hypothetical category that is, as you say, irrelevant.

So...............................What the hell IS the point?


Coondog :hum:

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Crux
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When the safety net becomes a hammock...

Postby Crux » 2013 Oct 25 13:43

Coondog, slow down. Look at the question of what is reasonable, or what is sustainable. Take disability for example when it was firs instituted there were 53 people working for every one person on disability. You minimize the issue of both abuse, "entitlement", and the effects on both economic, and MENTAL HEALTH. If you can't grapple honestly with it all Ia can not help you.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/terence ... umber-full

"Americans who were recipients of means-tested government benefits in 2011 outnumbered year-round full-time workers, according to data released this month by the Census Bureau."

Can you say "tipping point"?