East Lexington's Dam

Main discussion area is here. Reply to a message to continue a discussion thread, or create your own new Topics.

Should the East Lexington low-head dam be removed within 5 years?

Yes
27
68%
No
13
33%
 
Total votes: 40

User avatar
Stonewall
Site Admin
Posts: 125
Joined: 2007 Jun 11 03:26

Civil Discourse

Postby Stonewall » 2008 Mar 30 20:52

May I suggest that we moderate our tone in the interest of civil discourse?

Passion and conviction, backed skillful argument and solid fact, are commendable. Diatribe and insult are not.

There is ample room here for divergent opinion. Make arguments, make them well, make them forcefully ... but make them in a manner that is more likely to persuade than to enrage.

Your humble Administrator,
Stonewall

PS. I have edited a few postings, not to change their essential points, but to dampen personal invective.
Thanks for your posts! Stonewall, your administrator ... just an "empty suit."

Pro Bono

Re: After the Dam

Postby Pro Bono » 2008 Mar 31 01:21

TO ALL: Todays exchange of veiws was the most disturbing, vile and crass exchange I have ever read on this Forum.I wasn't going to lower myself to participate in this feeding frenzy. But, I am lowering myself to post this.

Jesus,Religion,God ,Buddah,Hate,Money,Rich Kids and Christian Believes were brought into this exchange. Oh' you left out Charles Manson.

Young Charles was my freind. I was his Mentor and Uncle person in his life. Charles isn't here to defend himself. How can adults berate and slander a dead young man,with no knowledge of him nor his values and personality? Discussing hear-say about him.that people will testify about his character in a courtroom. LOOK BACK at what you have written and implied.

Charles was my friend and a wonderful caring young man he was. I had Scuba dove with him before and the last time I was with him we were fishing on a jetty 100 yards out on the Gulf of Mexico.I was pleased and proud of him when after catching a Stingray he climbed his way ashore thru 100 yards of boulder jettys,to release the Stingray. He was always aware of the dangers and conditions around him. As far as his decision to go into the water that unfortunate day,I'm sure he looked it over first. The only type of swimmer or trained diver that would have been alarmed that day would have to be a Navy Seal. As they are trained to dive and recognize conditions such as the Muary River and Dam were on that day. I won't proceed further. I just wanted to relay my disgust with todays exchange.Start a topic of "We Hate Chuck" Ok ? But leave my young friend Charles out of these disgusting posts. He's not here to defend himself !
Last edited by Pro Bono on 2008 Apr 06 12:46, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Callyinva
Posts: 15
Joined: 2007 Nov 09 07:38

Re: After the Dam

Postby Callyinva » 2008 Mar 31 08:43

I still stand by my own comment that there seems to be 2 different issues that have gotten people so upset.

10thFO

Re: After the Dam

Postby 10thFO » 2008 Mar 31 09:14

Pro Bono,

I wasn't trying to take attack on Charles. I have felt loss before, I just stated my position on the situation. I just thought it distasteful to bring Religion into the conversation as from what turns out to be a non believer.

I won't start or take place in a "we hate Chuck" thread. A life was lost. I just stated that I didn't agree with the suit. My family didn't sue the state department when my brother crashed his motorcycle due to their negligence of sweeping gravel off a a paid thoroughfare after a heavy rain had washed out some gravel gulley a few days prior. It is just peoples personal preference on how they deal with it.

What would a "Danger" sign done anyway? Panther Falls is protected and posted, and people jump off their all the time. It's part of being a young child or young adult. Hell some of us never learn until it's too later. Not saying they shouldn't have been up, but signs don't stop people from speeding, and speed limits are posted for safety. Their was negligence all around. It won't bring Charles back, and for that, I feel for the Volpes. I've seen how child/brother life tears at the very fabric of family.

I'm tiring of this conversation, because I tried to make an honest post, in a respectful way of the deceased. If people want to name call and sling mud have at it. I just won't do it on this subject.

needler
Posts: 35
Joined: 2007 Aug 20 11:01

apologies

Postby needler » 2008 Mar 31 12:42

You are right, and I am wrong. I never should have used the name of any religion, nor used religion as a battering ram. All of you who DO walk the walk have my sincere apologies. But why can't I invoke the teachings of a great man to make the point that we really ARE our brothers' keepers and that we should be kinder to others, just because I am, as you say, an "unbeliever?? I just found the distinct LACK of kindness very disturbing and still do. Saying "I'm really sorry for Charles' death, BUT........" seemed to be the order of the day, and I've never found an expression of sympathy followed by a long roaring diatribe to do anyone much good. It's almost oxymoronic to begin with kindness and then slam, denigrate and slander. That's what set me off, and again, I apologize to those who are trying to be thoughtful in this time of whirlwinds and earthquakes, but can't really apologize to anyone who saw fit to be cruel. And, by the way, once you write it down.....it becomes libel.

Apologies to the kinder citizens of this area; apologies to anyone offended by what I said, but NO apologies to the unbelievably heartless few who really don't see this situation and its' aftermath as anything more than "oh, well, some poor kid screwed up but we really shouldn't worry because OUR kid would NEVER do that, and besides...what makes it OUR problem, anyway?"

Because this place really does make me sick at heart, and saddens me that there are so many unfeeling people on it, this will be my swan song. I wish everyone the very best of luck in future; I really believe you are going to need it. And for the last time, say goodbye to the devils..... :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:

User avatar
Juggler
Posts: 634
Joined: 2007 Jun 11 03:51

Re: After the Dam

Postby Juggler » 2008 Mar 31 12:58

Hey, we need the devils around here. Or at least the devilish!
:dance14: Don't be a stranger. :dance14:

Pro Bono

Re: After the Dam

Postby Pro Bono » 2008 Mar 31 13:09

Needler, I too am taking two steps back and none forward.I am "standing down" on this forum for awhile.The topic was "After the Dam"at about page three the topic and constructive input was gone.The content of the subject matter that was under discussion had become personal and with slanderish statements. And with out any merit or bearing on the future of the Dam or recreational uses at Jordans Park. Other more construtive things to do with my time. Pro -Bono

LexMom

Re: After the Dam

Postby LexMom » 2008 Mar 31 13:23

The city didn't even know they owned the dam at the time of his death-they were aware of JP obligations. An oversight for decades by the city but not heartless in regards to park safety. Staying within the confines of the swimming area would have kept a teenager alive instead of going anywhere near the obvious turbulent dam. In the water twice is what I have been informed-did the water conditions change after his initial entrance? Probably not but the area he was swimming in would have changed those conditions. Charles was possibly negligent in his actions which resulted in his death. His father placed blame on others which is now being returned to Charles as a part in that blame. If you had a hard time with the exchange of views in this forum then you should brace for the courtroom where it is called defense.

User avatar
Wise One
Posts: 1817
Joined: 2007 Nov 02 09:33

Re: After the Dam

Postby Wise One » 2008 Mar 31 14:50

LexMom wrote:The city didn't even know they owned the dam at the time of his death ... you should brace for the courtroom where it is called defense.

This argument only makes Lexington look more incompetent and more culpable. The City does not know what geography it owns or controls or is responsible for?

:roll: Maybe you should think long and hard before taking a job as defense attorney for the City. :roll:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

LexMom

Re: After the Dam

Postby LexMom » 2008 Mar 31 15:10

I was just pointing out an obvious fact about how no one really knew who owned the dam . The city has Mr. Zunka on the case so they won't be needing help from any of us unless we have useful testimony . I have heard he has quite a defense case in the works so don't go getting your feelings hurt when he brings it.

User avatar
Wise One
Posts: 1817
Joined: 2007 Nov 02 09:33

Re: After the Dam

Postby Wise One » 2008 Mar 31 16:23

I'm thinking that all the chatter, whichever side you find yourself on, is going to generate more interest in the trial than we have seen for a very long time. The joint is going to be packed with gawkers.

:wink: Maybe I'll get tickets 'n scalp 'em. :wink:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

10thFO

Wise' One, beware

Postby 10thFO » 2008 Mar 31 18:16

you should be called crass very soon, for a very tongue in cheek statement I know. I'm sure the trial will be well televised, and I'm sure the city will be found negligent in some regard. I've also been in court enough to know that just because one is negligent, doesn't mean they are always doing it for their own benefit. I won't be there, it reminds me of too many bad things. I still love the water, went fishing the other day, and am learning to fly fish now. It may kill me one day, but I hope that my son will respect it as I try to. All types.

Like I said, you won't need to sell tickets, there will be enough gossip to go around, and I guess which paper one wants to read will provide totally different perspectives. Isn't that the great thing about this country? Discourse.

RIP. Charles, I can fault no young man who loves the water.

10thFO

Re: apologies

Postby 10thFO » 2008 Mar 31 18:27

needler wrote:You are right, and I am wrong. I never should have used the name of any religion, nor used religion as a battering ram. All of you who DO walk the walk have my sincere apologies. But why can't I invoke the teachings of a great man to make the point that we really ARE our brothers' keepers and that we should be kinder to others, just because I am, as you say, an "unbeliever?? I just found the distinct LACK of kindness very disturbing and still do. Saying "I'm really sorry for Charles' death, BUT........" seemed to be the order of the day, and I've never found an expression of sympathy followed by a long roaring diatribe to do anyone much good. It's almost oxymoronic to begin with kindness and then slam, denigrate and slander. That's what set me off, and again, I apologize to those who are trying to be thoughtful in this time of whirlwinds and earthquakes, but can't really apologize to anyone who saw fit to be cruel. And, by the way, once you write it down.....it becomes libel.

Apologies to the kinder citizens of this area; apologies to anyone offended by what I said, but NO apologies to the unbelievably heartless few who really don't see this situation and its' aftermath as anything more than "oh, well, some poor kid screwed up but we really shouldn't worry because OUR kid would NEVER do that, and besides...what makes it OUR problem, anyway?"

Because this place really does make me sick at heart, and saddens me that there are so many unfeeling people on it, this will be my swan song. I wish everyone the very best of luck in future; I really believe you are going to need it. And for the last time, say goodbye to the devils..... :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:


You are funny. First of all it's Libel not slander if it is written in some kind of media. Slander is verbal. There has been a lot of libel going on here, from both sides. But that is the inherent nature of message boards.

Oxymoronic? Why would apologizing for a young, potentially prosperous man's death, and then saying that there are always two sides to the story be construed as denigrating? I'm sorry but this is a free land of opportunity and thought. If you don't like the views, then try to change the differing views in a civil way. To call into question one's Christianity, without knowing anything about those people only offers you up for the same type of retaliation, so please, don't play the victim card here.

My child bears his uncles namesake. He looks, acts like him, has the same birthdate to the T. Will the same fate happen to my son? It probably will in some shape or form, for some sort of evil that I did to some other person. I don't know what that evil was, I just followed orders, and tried to save my friends, but these are the things that shake me when I awake at night. Life is too short, I'm sure I will need the best of luck, but for you to judge me, when you don't know what I or any other person on this forum has been through is preposterous. We just responded to your post. Nothing more nothing less.

God save us all.

User avatar
Wise One
Posts: 1817
Joined: 2007 Nov 02 09:33

Jes' Pickin' Nits

Postby Wise One » 2008 Mar 31 20:01

10thFO wrote:... Libel not slander if it is written in some kind of media. Slander is verbal.

You're all talking above my head, so I'll stay down here among the nits.

Libel and Slander are both Verbal. One is written (words), the other is oral (words.)
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

User avatar
Wise One
Posts: 1817
Joined: 2007 Nov 02 09:33

Re: After the Dam

Postby Wise One » 2008 Mar 31 22:16

Yep, it's different and refreshing, thank goodness. Congrats on g'momhood.

:hammer: After sitting through those rants on the dam, I want an epidural. :hammer:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

User avatar
Stonewall
Site Admin
Posts: 125
Joined: 2007 Jun 11 03:26

Meeting on the Dam

Postby Stonewall » 2008 Apr 02 12:31

Participants, did you attend, how did this go, and what are your opinions?

Roberta Anderson of News-Gazette wrote:Forum On Dam Planned For April 1
A community forum on the future of the Jordans Point dam has been scheduled for 7 p.m. Tuesday, April 1, at Rockbridge County High School.

The forum is jointly sponsored by the Lexington and Rockbridge County planning offices.

Ever since the drowning death of Charles Volpe in April 2006, the dam has been a priority for Bill Blatter, Lexington director of planning and development. Volpe was swimming in the Maury River when he was swept over the dam. City officials say they also discovered the city to be the legal owner of the 174-year-old structure following the tragedy.
Thanks for your posts! Stonewall, your administrator ... just an "empty suit."

User avatar
Wise One
Posts: 1817
Joined: 2007 Nov 02 09:33

Re: After the Dam

Postby Wise One » 2008 Apr 03 22:32

I could not get to the meeting, drat.

But I found this video report of the meeting, with a little information.

Warning- they may have used somewhat nonstandard technology. I found that the .wmv streaming file would not play for me in windows media player, but this video player works fine. (It seems to play video formats that nothing else can handle, so I may dump microsoft's lame product.)

:toothy2:
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."

User avatar
fangz1956
Posts: 1124
Joined: 2007 Jul 07 10:16

Re: After the Dam

Postby fangz1956 » 2008 Apr 04 19:03

Wise One,
Thanks for the link. Mine worked just fine with RealPlayer.

I have not followed this thread with the interest it probably deserves. I'm an outsider and don't get a vote. I tend to stay away from things that are not germane to my daily life. That being said, I do have a question or two about this whole issue.
Writng as a casual, outside observer and as a person who has enjoyed canoe trips down the Maury River, a couple of things perplex me here. (I've got on my armor and bullet-proof vest because I am almost certain that bullets will fly after this).

1. Why would the city or any of its citizens want to destroy the venue for canoing and kayaking? That seems ludicrous in my humble opinion.

2. With all due respect to Mr. Volpe (and my deep sympathy over the loss of his son), how can you sue a city and its taxpaying residents for a choice that your son made for himself?

3. In regard to Question Number 2, how can one claim to be working closely and equitably with city planners toward a solution when one is dragging those same people through the courts seeking millions of dollars in damages? Will those millions of dollars bring back the boy that died? If the city loses the suit and has to pony up the big bucks, what does that do to Lexington's economy and what does it do to reach any kind of suitable solution? Wouldn't that money be better spent in other ways?

4. I grew up being a river rat down here in Roanoke County. I spent lots of summers paddling around the river. One summer (when I was about 12) I got caught in the under-tow and nearly drowned. Had I drowned that day, should my parents have sued Roanoke County? Should they have demanded through force of will to have ALL swimming holes in all rivers posted and/or cordoned off? I think not. Swimming is an adventure where the participant assumes all the risk.

5. Was this boy completely unaware of the risks associated with swimming in this area? I highly doubt it. As the parent of two (ages 22 and 16) kids will go where the risk is................they see themselves as invincible and immortal. It is the responsibilty of the parent to educate their children about risks and hazards and to issue warnings and set limits. Sometimes the price for misadventure is exceedingly high and incredibly painful. There is not a lawsuit big enough to erase pain or change the past.

What a litigious society we have become and how easy it is to try to place blame other than where it belongs. The blame does not belong to the City of Lexington or its taxpayers, nor does it belong to the Commonwealth of Virginia, the County of Rockbridge, or any other public entity. A person made a bad choice and died as a result of that choice......that is where the blame lays and nowhere else. Consequences of our actions.................that is life.


:2cent:

One after-thought: Would this be happening if the child that drowned had come from a poor family living on the wrong side of the tracks? Somehow, I don't think that it would.
Ever looked at someone and thought "the wheel is turning but the hamster is dead"?

LexMom

Re: After the Dam

Postby LexMom » 2008 Apr 05 16:59

It is so good to see another voice of reason. Fangz these are the same questions we have been asking for a while now. Mr. Volpe can do nothing but recite from what info he has managed to pull up on the Internet about lowhead dams. All these questions will certainly be answered in the upcoming hearing. I think Mr. Volpe is going to have a hard time listening to the facts from the defense. As for our board, it appears the kitchen has become a bit too hot for Chuck.

The law that was passed is so minor we will barely hear about it in the years to come, it will have little impact on the rampant crisis of Dumb-A's causing their own deaths in regard to being in such close vicinity to dams. I think it is a good idea for river areas that have dams randomly placed in the water that cannot been seen by boaters, kayakers, etc., to be posted 'Dam Ahead' But come on, this dam is so vastly viewed from so many places off Rt. 11, if you ventured to it or near it then you are only asking for trouble. These boys swam halfway out into the river headed toward the dam. They were not going for a dip...they were headed for flips.

It is the thrillseekers that should be addressed. I think the best action that could have been taken is for all of us to sit down and talk to our children about how dangerous it is to push the limits. How they should put the suffering of their parents, family and friends into consideration before they do something stupid enough to get themselves killed. Whether it is fast driving, dam diving or whatever other stupid situation they can find ( and they do find them ). Can I say Thank Goodness I have a daughter? Ok so maybe that is stereotyping but I see my girlfriends with sons who are constantly breaking a bone, or needing stitches...why? Because they did something completely idiotic, but at the time they thought it was cool and really funny. The shows like Jackass have lead to many an injury to the point they literally had to put a disclaimer up telling the little jackasses at home not to do the stunts or they will get hurt....or die. Talk to your kids folks, I took this a lesson to even talk to my prissy, does not want a speck of dirt to ever hit her clothes, daughter. The possibility of her being in the wrong situation or with someone doing something dangerous is very likely. I want her to know it is okay to tell a friend ' No, that is just stupid, someone could get hurt' Because peer pressure can lead to our children being lead to do some really dangerous things. The phrase " Well if your friends jumped off a bridge (dam) I guess you would too?" comes to mind.

Read Charles's Myspace page. He is a self proclaimed daredevil. He drove fast with the windows down and music blaring ( his words from his writing not mine), he was an extreme snowboarder with pictures of him doing extremely high jumps, he was an extreme skateboarder flipping and jumping out at the skatepark daily....this kid took chances.

Why do we even have to be put in a position to say this to another parent who has lost a child? Because Chuck Volpe is trying to push his guilt and hurt onto our city by suing us for 9 million dollars. Because he cannot stand to drive by and look at that damn dam, we all pay for Charles's consequences. I feel sorry for you Mr. Volpe for more reasons than your losing a child. I hope you are teaching your other son some different lessons, because my daughter showed me pictures of him on facebook standing in front of a table of alcohol with other kids in the background. He was also was kicked out of RCHS for possession on school grounds. It is time to stop playing the innocent victim, and take responsibility for the lessons and values you have taught your children. Leave Lexington out of it.
Last edited by LexMom on 2008 Apr 07 08:50, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Wise One
Posts: 1817
Joined: 2007 Nov 02 09:33

Re: After the Dam

Postby Wise One » 2008 Apr 05 18:13

Thanks, fangz, for your compliment and for thoughtful questions. I'll give a shot at arguments deserving of consideration, if not finally accepted when all the pros and cons have been considered.
fangz1956 wrote:Why would the city or any of its citizens want to destroy the venue for canoing and kayaking?
It's not that simple. I've canoed very long stretches of the Maury and personally view the dam as something that degrades the canoing experience because it is a barrier that must be portaged around, creating a long stretch "dead water" that isn't nearly as much fun as the naturally flowing portions of the stream. There are also good environmental reasons for restoring our streams to a natural state.
fangz1956 wrote:With all due respect to Mr. Volpe (and my deep sympathy over the loss of his son), how can you sue a city and its taxpaying residents for a choice that your son made for himself?
This is complex. There is shared responsibility for the accident here, so there is a cause of action. The court must weigh how to allocate responsibility between the City and Charles. Good arguments will be made on both sides, and I don't have clue how the Court will rule. I've also canoed many other places, and I remember vividly approaching Little Falls VA dam on the Potomac, another killing machine, that has a forest of warning signs and buoys visible ashore and from the water. A significant issue here is: what responsibility does the owner of an attractive nuisance have to protect the public from harm?
fangz1956 wrote: .. how can one claim to be working closely and equitably with city planners toward a solution when one is dragging those same people through the courts seeking millions of dollars in damages?
I don't see these as mutually exclusive, although it must be admitted that the situation will create tensions.
fangz1956 wrote:If the city loses the suit and has to pony up the big bucks, what does that do to Lexington's economy and what does it do to reach any kind of suitable solution? Wouldn't that money be better spent in other ways?
Alas, nearly everybody who is sued asks similar questions. Our system of law allows parties to seek compensation and punishment .. and the court will rule as it feels best serves justice.
fangz1956 wrote:I grew up being a river rat down here in Roanoke County. I spent lots of summers paddling around the river. One summer (when I was about 12) I got caught in the under-tow and nearly drowned. Had I drowned that day, should my parents have sued Roanoke County? Should they have demanded through force of will to have ALL swimming holes in all rivers posted and/or cordoned off? I think not. Swimming is an adventure where the participant assumes all the risk.
The natural features you describe differ significantly from the dam, a constructed device that altered the natural setting to increase danger by creating hydraulics. We, and the law, accept natural features and the dangers that attend them much more than constructed features.
fangz1956 wrote:Was this boy completely unaware of the risks associated with swimming in this area? I highly doubt it. As the parent of two (ages 22 and 16) kids will go where the risk is................they see themselves as invincible and immortal. It is the responsibility of the parent to educate their children about risks and hazards and to issue warnings and set limits. Sometimes the price for misadventure is exceedingly high and incredibly painful. There is not a lawsuit big enough to erase pain or change the past.
Your point actually supports the argument that the City has a special responsibility to recognize that young people are notoriously poor at assessing risk, and to take reasonable steps that will protect the public anyway.
"If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like Donald Trump."


Return to “MAIN FORUM”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests